phew. that title was a mouthful.
is Love just oxytocin? some would like to reduce us to strange cartoonlike machines, sputtering and chugging along — Love being a chemical & a formula, no consciousness just behaviors —
here’s a chat on what i consider a good direction philosophically — considering the wave of science that has comes down onto us since “The Enlightenment” & somewhat fueled by admiration of industrial era technological “progress” such as fossil fuel burning — that went well haha — where i argue for the whole existence of Love, & against reducing it, as well as air some ideas about our worth of Love vs. truth, as ideals, when it comes to schools, curricula, & our approach —
here:
<lakitu> some people say Love is oxytocin; that is the same thing as saying sex is sperm & vaginal fluids. but that is the reduction i see in some circles
<LionClan> may be a tautology
<lakitu> LionClan: use your noggin =)
<lakitu> or a grammar checker, i suppose
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<lakitu> wb artalien
<lakitu> just said this:
<lakitu> some people say Love is oxytocin; that is the same thing as saying sex is sperm & vaginal fluids. but that is the reduction i see in some circles
<lakitu> some people say Love is oxytocin; that is the same thing as saying sex is semen & vaginal fluids. but that is the reduction i see in some circles
<artalien2> Ty
<artalien2> Reduction sux :)
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<lakitu> sex is so much more than that, Love is so much more than ‘the fluid that runs thru our brain/glands when we Love someone’ – we must really take care to not make that mistake, we lose so much
<artalien2> Lionclan I would not answer literally and say ” if it makes sense to you it is well formed”
<altered> lakitu: id love to know what that you just said but its just glowing lights on my monitor :(
*** Mode #philosophical +l 44 by X
<lakitu> =)
<lakitu> exactly
<lakitu> agree artalien2, i feel a big anti-reduction thing coming on
<lakitu> i guess you call it non-reductionism – i think
<lakitu> thing/cultural wave
<lakitu> i hope anyway –
<artalien2> I gotta go – interesting lc
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<lakitu> romanticism/anti-(over)intellectualism/non-reductionism/’mix in your own’ =)
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<lakitu> i would love to see a non-reduction push among people, it can be such a big mistake, to write-off truly indispensible things like Love, consciousness, because your meter and a theory says too
<lakitu> that doesn’t mean i stopped ‘being a monist’, or really being able to see things monisitically – re physicalism
<lakitu> i was an early proponent of physicalism…
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<lakitu> but`reducing Love to oxytocin is like reducing sex to semen – both are so much more
<lakitu> semen and vaginal fluids* =)
-*- lakitu coughs gently
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<lakitu> delicate interplays
<lakitu> i won’t get theoretical on sex, that’s what i’m saying: over- or mis-theorizing about Love & sex is what i’m criticizing.
<lakitu> reductionism
<lakitu> you know, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing
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<lakitu> altered – you are not artalien are you?
<altered> i am indeed not
<lakitu> i guess the names look similar -ok
<lakitu> so you’re still here
<lakitu> not quizzing you, just seeing if you were art coming back, or what
<lakitu> 2nd nicks, you know
<altered> undernet servers appear to use 14.4kbaud modem, kicks me off all the time
<lakitu> haha
<lakitu> i know
<lakitu> here’s a real opportunity for programmers: update irc, get it back competitive
<lakitu> it was really cool technology – in like 1995 lol
<lakitu> we could pictures, fonts, stuff like that
<lakitu> could use*
<altered> that would be cool
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<lakitu> there’s probably a lot of really great things you could do with something where you already have a lot of the basic time-tested functionalities needed for having public discussion
<lakitu> but then you’d have to get all the major networks to update
<lakitu> it seems like tehy made an arrangement where it was difficult to update
<lakitu> or something
<lakitu> anyway
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<lakitu> altered: isn’t that how dogs see monitors
<lakitu> reductionism might be / could be anti human, along that thought path
<lakitu> altered: rel as just glowing lights
<lakitu> re*
<lakitu> instead of text
<lakitu> so yeah
<lakitu> it seems anti-what-we-have-made-of-ourselves to reduce away text, consciousness, Love…
<altered> yeah its quite self-deprecating imo
<lakitu> it is an affront to humans
<lakitu> i think
<lakitu> it is offensive
<lakitu> like when someone says – no offense to jihodi/hisothernicks, YOU don’t exist – when they’re pushing solipsism
<lakitu> LionClan: maybe i misunderstood you/the context
<lakitu> re statements vs. malformed statements
<lakitu> lissa, if you like, here’s the backlog from before you joined:
<lakitu> Your order is being prepared.
<lakitu> http://shorttext.com/5fcee7d0
<lakitu> not really an order, i guess.
<lakitu> so altered, yes you understand non-reductionism
*** Mode #philosophical +o LionClan by X
* LionClan has changed topic for #philosophical to: “How can you differentiate a statement from a malformed statement? How can you insure a statement is not malformed?”
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<lakitu> shouldn’t that be well-formed statement?
<lakitu> or something?
<lakitu> well-written?
<lakitu> anyway
<LionClan> whatever the point of information the agenda reverts to the original question
<lakitu> hm?
<lakitu> i don’t get it
<LionClan> ammending the question is allowed before the question is called
<lakitu> ah
<lakitu> i mean here’s something. people love tablets, smartphones, computers – especially for the internet. we obviously have some love for sharing culture – articles, our thoughts, books, videos, movies, blogs
<LionClan> the question could hardly ammend itself, now could it
<lakitu> —
<lakitu> why don’t we use that knowledge *locally*, & rather than ‘streamline educations for economic growth’, still have learning/all the topics we have, but have more focus on personal & social development
<lakitu> hobbies even
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<lakitu> i’ve said this before. i proposed 5 classes for schools – my big computer is down so i can’t check – umm… yeah i’m not sure i’ll be able to remember them all. but this is a little different this time
<lakitu> because i’m talking about the ideals of Love & truth, & how we value them.
<lakitu> i’m not talking about getting my action theory stuff in classes – so don’t worry
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<lakitu> the classes were like morality/ethics – something thye’ve just recently started, a sort of immersed / real life virtue ethics – for example, one i remember was having Grit — remember i think of morality as social, ethics as what’s been called ‘desert island ethics’, personal ethics – what principles, etc serve your interests – even if no one else were involved. an example is temperance, the old cardinal virtue from ancient Greece & Rome
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<lakitu> fun was another; hobbies was another; social hour was another; religion was the last i thought of – you could do separate classes for separate religions, no discrimination, no being forced to listen to something you don’t want. that decision would be between the child and their parents, i would imagine
<lakitu> so it’s really similar, what i said before and this time actually: more focus on People, “Love”`if you can understand that as an ideal, less on making economic machines but still retaining core teachings about language, nation, number
<lakitu> etc
<lakitu> nation/world
<lakitu> an easy way to expand classes at aimed at fun / hobbies (really passions – things that they could possibly do for a dream career, or better still, things they like and want to make more of for the rest of us, that also serve them while they go) – is to go for music, the arts
<lakitu> music and the arts are currently being cut, sometimes completely
<lakitu> already from a sort of marginal existence
<lakitu> i think school is an awesome idea, and i am not an enemy of academia
<lakitu> but like our taste in movies and video games – violence, explosions – it (school) is still primitive. we’re a very young civilization
<lakitu> but
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<Damian-> You are talking about a reformation in the education system?
<lakitu> i visited a cool alternative high school where if you were interested in ‘being a rock singer’, then by golly we were gonna sit you down and let you try to really be a rock singer – do the hard work, see if it really could be in your future
<lakitu> Damian-: airing some ideas for them
<lakitu> — let kids pursue their dreams, *with guidance*
<Damian-> There’s a specific name for that type of schooling – If I recall correctly.
<lakitu> yes, i tried googling, but couldn’t find it
<lakitu> i visited it when i was schooling to become a k>12 english teacher
<Damian-> It’s a method
<lakitu> sure
<lakitu> i can’t remember it either
<Damian-> Waldorf education?
<lakitu> mm. i think they called their school something else – but that may be the term for that teaching method
<lakitu> i think it was a 4 letter acronym
<Damian-> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldorf_education
<lakitu> there’s also autodidacticism – that’s the idea of hobbies – what distinguishes it from fun
<lakitu> perfect your craft
<lakitu> you’d probably have to do the policing of asking if they are doing a legitimate thing or just some contrivance to screw with your mind, lol, like me when i was 9th grade lol
<lakitu> lol
<lakitu> but
<lakitu> you could bring in community experts – real experts, with a reputation for expertise, not just someone who walked thru the golden arches of college
<lakitu> i gotta wake up here tho
<Damian-> The problem with schooling or at least in elementary school — is the belief all children are equal in terms of skills. Which is not entirely true.
<lakitu> and interest
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<lakitu> the turn i was really trying to make here was toward Love/”’sociality”’ – away from all-truth, all-the-time, work work work, Love/socializing is what happens in the margins. you’d have to be genius in devising a way to get that to not be awkward
<Damian-> The insistence on competition before cooperation causes segregation in the end.
<lakitu> some kind of props, etc, as my friend used to call them – ‘things’ to distract
<lakitu> nice contribution Damian-
<lakitu> we are social beings
<CYLON> beings?
<lakitu> cooperation should be first and foremost
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<Damian-> Competition causes indirectly instrumental and emotional conditioning.
<lakitu> activities. but it doesn’t always have to be serious work
<lakitu> school
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<lakitu> Damian-: put it in human terms
<Damian-> Some win ( get rewareded) and other loses and obtain the punishment for that.
<CYLON> trial by fire vs flood
<CYLON> anntagonistic vs synagonistic
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<lakitu> anyway, i’m gonna take a break for awhile
<CYLON> lol @ lakity
<CYLON> you said yoou are a social being
<CYLON> and thenn you asked for thinngs to be said in human terms
<CYLON> do you honestly think yoou are human
<lakitu> yes
<lakitu> uh
<lakitu> yes cylon? =)
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<CYLON> are you human ?
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<lakitu> so anyway just was saying let’s affirm, explore non-reductionism, re anti-intellectual traditions & ways, re romanticism, re Love – & sketched some thoughts for a reconsideration of schools’ aims: Love up against truth
<CYLON> and suggested something that doesnt work for you ?
<CYLON> how embarassing
<Damian-> Well the point is that — the mechanism of competition is very brutal – you are learning like an animal. To kill or die. Flooded of emotional stimuli.
<lakitu> keep at it Damian- – altered if you have anything
<CYLON> tell me what blessed experience you are cominng frommm
<CYLON> do plz
<lakitu> CYLON: hm?
<CYLON> alll you suggested is cuurrently being voiced
<CYLON> by me
<lakitu> huh
<CYLON> you being indiferent to me is inndicatory
<lakitu> i’ll have to think about that
<CYLON> of how much your ideas are really worth
<lakitu> thanks
<lakitu> a little self doubt with my morning coffee
<CYLON> self doubbt
<lakitu> no thanks =) later CYLON, Damian-, altered
<CYLON> again fancy exaggerations or oxymoronsn
<altered> cya lakitu
<lakitu> don’t make me call security
<lakitu> =)
<lakitu> bye =)
<CYLON> because you arent on your way out ?
-*- lakitu goes
<CYLON> did i ruinn your inspired hit line?
<CYLON> so sorry
<CYLON> NOOT
<lakitu> you wish lol
* * *
so that’s it, my “inspired hit line.” lol
as a last comment, to be clear, the tie-in to ‘school’ from Romanticism/Non-reductionism is not reducing the full, rich, inexhaustibility of our lives, to the quest for truth – preserving social life, preserving sublime Love, even the specialness of sex.
this is not to say there are not fluids/hormones/chemical things happening at the level of description of chemistry — maybe even analysis — but it’s to say there is more going on than that: & my real personal life sensibilities/intuitions/hunches are not something i am going to exchange for chemistry & chemicals. Love is irreducible.
so next time — this really happened to me — you read a magazine article — even one citing “research” — saying ‘Love has been scientifically understood, and the computed time of Love is 6 months, on average, after which Love decreases monotonically’ — question your higher sense, about what is best to believe: Love is that magical, enchanted thing you found in movie theatres, in coffee houses: Everywhere —
or Love “is a mammalian neurohypophysial hormone. Produced by the hypothalamus and stored and secreted by the posterior pituitary gland, [Love] acts primarily as a neuromodulator in the brain.”
Love is irreducible & i hope you choose to keep your real life / personal life sensibilities about Love rather than be sold some snake oil ‘instant Love understander’ formula =).
to be honest, i think it’s healthier to love Love more & live in Love & experience the magical, enchanted moments it offers, than pick it apart analytically.
Thanks For Reading =)
~ Joe