Here is a “semi-direct democracy” chat I gave/had in 2010, inspired by a couple people I had talked to on the internet & the National Citizen’s Initiative For Democracy as I understand it not-founded-but-spearheaded-by former Alaskan Senator Mike Gravel. It is ‘semi-direct’ – making The Populus (The People) 1/4th of the branches of government we have today.

If you like, you can read this whole thing:

As a note, the amount of seriousness I have for this is an open ended question – but for the sake of festivities, from political & philosophy chatrooms of 2010 – here it is —

Happy 4th Of July:

Start of #political buffer: Mon Jul 12 18:28:39 2010
[17:02:23] list of nicks present in #political:
lakitu DoodleThis redfrog @Kahuna snaggle
@Cr0Wz_ tobias` poguemahone JacB Zeno
lysander greebo_Bratt JustBeing PixyStyxx
@danie Oakmill aulait Trahenots fdorrb__
phdtje- human810927 ElNino^ PlagueRat
LionClan @Funglius mmalf Gill yarkenberg
MrKite Skept pr|mary BillyTheK @aero
Redeye^ eurosnob tzip Thargor Culpepper
Mekon DuckDodgers shields_ humma_kavu
la StudyUrNme oitnelis MaRkiE Jacobb
^AAman chalcedony val-l centrex Bosupa
Lappy peterg
[17:02:23] list of nicks present in #political:
@CanHead^ Aleister93 tange2^ Queenie
@obamabat NooProcess CGold @SevenOf
Nine @NineOhFive patriot tredlord
Tristram Sauce anacronym @MsSwin
alleyoop killerbichon @X UA175 paros
flatteringne sanitee weenerdog Roswell`d
riprap
[17:02:23] * X sets mode: +l 81
[17:02:24] <redfrog> It happened this
summer in Kharkov (the Ukraine). The
drunk driver fatally hit six people (two of
them were children at the age of 12 and 5
years old) at the tram stop. A 32-year old
woman’s body was dismembered by the
car’s hit.
[17:02:27] <yarkenberg> danie yes i meant
weeziana
[17:02:41] <Zeno> danie I think it is
hebonics. ;)
[17:03:05] <danie> yarkenberg: don’t you
remember the Martha’s Vineyard debacle?
… they were well put out finding/keeping
an area secure for them.
[17:03:17] <killerbichon> the new bp cap is
almost installed
[17:03:20] <redfrog> The mother who
suffred from schizofrenia killed her own
two children at her own appartment. The
4-year old child was completely decapitat
ed. The one-year old baby’s neck was
slashed causing fatal bleeding from the
carotid arteries.
[17:03:20] * JacB2 ([email protected]
et.org) has joined #political
[17:03:23] * X sets mode: +l 82
[17:03:33] * PlagueRat winds up witha really
filthy stinging personal insult… and forgets
what he’s doing…
[17:03:35] <killerbichon> flange trasition
spool to the 3 ram stack
[17:03:39] <lakitu> http://www.ni4d.us/en/
endorsements <– this SHOULD BE the
wave of the future… direct athenian
democracy
[17:03:43] <lakitu> dang it, brb, phone
[17:03:52] * JacB ([email protected]
t.org) Quit (Read error: Operation timed
out)
[17:03:53] * X sets mode: +l 81
[17:04:05] <Culpepper> Zeno As you can
imagine I find no federal authority within
the Constitution to limit, regulate, restrict
or prohibit what we may or may not
consume.  I hope the California propositio
n passes and the courts sustain it.
[17:04:14] <redfrog> he’s determined to
kill jobs…..he’s dedicated!…he’s comitted!
[17:04:26] <lakitu> direct athenian
democracy using the internet
[17:04:30] <yarkenberg> danie – what gulf
state is matha’s vineyard in? how does that
make maine a better choice? maybe he
should have picked the north slope in
alaska
[17:04:50] <poguemahone> yeah.. firect
athenian democracy would work soooooo
well these days.  “so.. have we got a
quorum yet”  “er…no.. just 100 million
short”
[17:05:02] <Kahuna> fear derivatives
would run afoul of the Bucket  Shop laws
congress voted to empt them from
regulation
[17:05:43] <Kahuna> Congress voted to let
the bank merge  creating  too big to fail
banks
[17:05:50] <danie> yarkenberg: hey, I want
my president safe and secure .. your
milleage may vary … he doesn’t have his
own vacation home
[17:05:54] <Zeno> Culpepper  you may
want to read the 18th Amendment.
Though it was repealed by the 21st :)
[17:06:01] <Culpepper> poguemahone
Pure democracy is mob rule and I can
think of no faster means to destroy a
democratic government.
[17:06:19] <Culpepper> Zeno Understood.
[17:06:29] <Kahuna> congress allowed
consumers to be  exploited  they did not
stand up for the little guy
[17:06:35] <yarkenberg> @danie and
youre right – the guld states would make
an excellent working vacation for the
president. and he did say he wouldnt rest
until the mess is fixed – altho i think this
will be his 2nd or 3rd rest since bp
attacked the usa with oil
[17:06:52] <Zeno> Culpepper though I
tend to agree, that it should require an
amendment to utlaw drugs
[17:06:58] <yarkenberg> guld= gulf –
pardon my crappy typing
[17:06:59] <poguemahone> culpepper, i
dont think anyone would really argue that
the problem with classical athens was mob
rule
[17:07:05] <killerbichon> http://finance.ya
hoo.com/q?s=BP
[17:07:11] <Culpepper> Zeno That is my
position.
[17:07:20] <Culpepper> At lkeast at the
federal level.
[17:07:25] <Kahuna> the west is on a long
diown hill slide soon its creditors  ( china
russia  and the middle east)  will demand
changes  or else
[17:07:44] <yarkenberg> @danie i want
the president safe and secure too – is there
something unsafe in the gulf?
[17:08:06] <killerbichon> bp was up $2.71
today
[17:08:19] <Kahuna> A new report from
Morgan Stanley analyst Emma Lawson
confirms what many had suspected: the
dollar is firmly on its way to losing its
status as the reserve currency of the world.
[17:08:20] <redfrog> Obama must stay in a
bunker at all times
[17:08:21] <killerbichon> buy buy buy
[17:08:26] <redfrog> 4000000000 levels
underground
[17:08:32] <redfrog> The closer Obama is
to Satan the better
[17:08:39] <Culpepper> killerbichon I
bought at $29.85.  :)
[17:08:47] <danie> yarkenberg: find an
isolated beach front and prove that there
is a place that can be secured.
[17:08:51] <Kahuna> What is surprising is
that the managers of those central banks
aren’t buying traditional fall-backs like the
euro, the British pound or the Japanese
yen. Instead, she suggests they’re putting
their faith in other dollars – the kind that
come from Australia and Canada.
[17:09:04] <killerbichon> yer gonna double
up
[17:09:09] <Culpepper> 770 shares.  My
whole nest egg.
[17:09:15] <Kahuna> buy canadian dollars
now  !!
[17:09:24] <killerbichon> lol
[17:09:30] <killerbichon>  yer a gambler
[17:09:31] <human810927> Kahuna:
there’s some thinking that canadian dollars
are essentially ‘commodities backed’
[17:09:44] <yarkenberg> <@danie>
apparently there are no people in maine
so it is safe there – no one would vacation
in maine
[17:09:54] <Kahuna> human810927 yes
they  export oil lumber fish etc etc
[17:10:09] <human810927> And those
tend to rise in crisis times
[17:10:44] <Kahuna> human810927 wealth
is creatd by  selling stuff  to others
[17:10:48] <poguemahone> does it worry
anyone that intelligent people working
hard on currency speculation is an
unproductive waste of potentially decent
human beings
[17:11:11] <killerbichon> canadian dollars
are prolly a better long term hold than the
greenback
[17:11:19] * human810927 looks around the
room for productive human beings ;)
[17:11:20] <killerbichon> i think thats safe
to say
[17:11:26] <Kahuna> Just last week,
America’s debt lept $166 billion in a single
day. That one-day run-up is greater than
the entire U.S. annual deficit in 2007.
[17:11:36] <killerbichon> we can sell our
commoditities to china
[17:11:48] <poguemahone> finance.. and
internet chat.. are an unproductive waste
of potentially decent human beings.. that
better?  ;)
[17:12:02] <Zeno> Kahuna  you compare
the debt to the deficit…. bad idea
[17:12:12] <Culpepper> killerbichon I sold
gold at 1,235..it’s 1,197 now and bouth BP
at $29.80 and it’s $36.76 now.  $5,600
profit on a $23,600 investment in one
week.  I’m happy.
[17:12:15] * marc_luc (~adam_m@d64-180
-66-6.bchsia.telus.net) has joined #political
[17:12:17] * Kevin_pa (~me@c-174-54-249
-82.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) has joined
#political
[17:12:19] <killerbichon> kahuna its math
bro
[17:12:23] * X sets mode: +l 83
[17:12:28] <Kahuna> killerbichon we sold
them  last centrury
[17:12:36] <killerbichon>  double a penny a
day for a month
[17:12:41] <human810927> Culpepper:
german government punishes such trading
[17:12:46] <marc_luc> is barbara walters
going to interview castro on the view?
[17:12:55] <Kevin_pa> lol
[17:13:08] <Kevin_pa> marc Glenn beck
will
[17:13:09] <Kahuna> Just last week,
America’s deficit  lept $166 billion in a
single day. That one-day run-up is greater
than the entire U.S. annual deficit in 2007.
[17:13:10] <danie> marc_luc heh .. she just
had open heart surgery .. I doubt it
[17:13:16] <marc_luc> she always
interviews the heavyweights
[17:13:18] <Culpepper> human810927
American government encourages
investment.
[17:13:18] <Zeno> Baba Wawa is
sooooooo last century
[17:13:35] <lakitu> Culpepper: you do not
believe in the competence & goodness of
your fellowman? then you are unfit, not
them.  this government is of the people, by
the people, & for the people, as Lincoln
said, & has been a wild & superpowering
success. direct democracy should happen
[17:13:37] <Cr0Wz_> Fidel Castro can’t
drop dead fast enough…..He turned Cuba
into a toilet
[17:13:38] <yarkenberg> @Kahuna it’s
bush’s fault
[17:13:39] <BillyTheK> fidell still alive?
[17:13:44] <killerbichon> cp takke it and
bank it
[17:13:51] <Kevin_pa> Billy so they say
[17:13:55] <killerbichon> sweet nicety bro
[17:13:55] <Culpepper> I will drop at $50
and repurchase gold.
[17:13:55] <marc_luc> she even interview
ed the shah of iran just before those
religious fanatics toppled the state
[17:14:10] <Kahuna> yarkenberg  –
congress allocates the money  the
president just spends  it
[17:14:16] * Gill ([email protected]
r.cgocable.ca) has left #political
[17:14:18] <lakitu> & poguemahone: if you
mean who should vote who hasn’t, we
could work out ways to deal with negligent
voters, & by all means, it would be
compulsory
[17:14:23] * X sets mode: +l 82
[17:14:26] <lakitu> err would not
[17:14:30] <yarkenberg> castro has taken
my commie dreams and dashed them on a
home made life raft headed for miami
[17:14:32] <human810927> perhaps
stopping voting would be a good answer
[17:14:36] <lakitu> by all means, it would
not be compulsory
[17:14:39] <human810927> lol yarkenberg
[17:14:43] <Kevin_pa> Culpepper how
about silver? I am making a small fortune
of my old silver eagles..the GOP want
them LOL
[17:14:51] * X sets mode: -b *!*@adsl-69-2
09*.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net
[17:14:52] * DoodleThis (~doodlethi@193-
226.97-97.tampabay.res.rr.com) Quit (Read
error: Operation timed out)
[17:14:53] * X sets mode: +l 81
[17:14:54] <killerbichon> crowz i like cuba
as is
[17:14:55] <lakitu> if you abstained, that is
your choice to forgo your power
[17:15:01] <killerbichon> its a great contry
[17:15:06] <marc_luc> her cutting edge
questions reach soaring journalism heights:
for example, she said to a world leader, if
you could be a tree what tree would you
be?
[17:15:08] <poguemahone> lakitu.. or we
could just vote for a representative every
4-7 years and let him spend his time
finding out stuff
[17:15:10] <Cr0Wz_> killerbichon:
yea…that
[17:15:11] <killerbichon> nice beaches
[17:15:16] <human810927> lakitu: it is a
surrender of personal sovereignity to
participate in voting
[17:15:19] <Culpepper> Kevin_pa I’m just
nat familiar (comfortable) with the silver
market.
[17:15:20] * Gill ([email protected])
has joined #political
[17:15:23] <killerbichon> no yanks
[17:15:23] * X sets mode: +l 82
[17:15:33] <Cr0Wz_> killerbichon:
yea…that’s wonderful….give up your nice
cushy life and go live there….then let me
know how much you like it
[17:15:45] <lakitu> poguemahone: &
getting paid & wearing the weight of a
country & it’s management, to the point of
overburdening & possibly tempting (e.g.
lobbying)
[17:15:50] <killerbichon> just sayin
[17:15:58] <marc_luc> do you remember
when gilda radner did barbara walters on
SNL?
[17:16:02] <killerbichon> a yank free beach
is a nicer beach
[17:16:06] * MrKite (~huh@adsl-75-31-212
-173.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net) Quit (Quit)
[17:16:08] <Kevin_pa> Culpepper  ppl are
buying a troy ounce at unreal prices
[17:16:19] <Culpepper> Kevin_pa Yep
[17:16:23] * X sets mode: +l 81
[17:16:34] <killerbichon> yallllcan think
e=waht ya will
[17:16:44] <Kevin_pa> Culpepper is good
for me..getting rid of stuff laying around ;-)
[17:16:47] <yarkenberg> is robert gibbs
the biggest dumbass to ever man the w/h
press secretary post? i know the
competition has been stiff but he has got
to be the fav
[17:17:05] <poguemahone> lakitu… i’m not
american, i’m british.. i see many flaws in
the uK’s system of representative govt..
but.. it seems to me the US’s system really
really sux.  it would be better to improve
that system than hoping for some
unrealistic fantasy
[17:17:48] <marc_luc> so the british
system is the best?
[17:17:49] <killerbichon> why was cuba
blackballed
[17:17:59] <Cr0Wz_> killerbichon: as I
said….go live there and come back to
report how great life in Cuba is
[17:17:59] <marc_luc> for not cooperating
[17:18:13] <yarkenberg> im just amazed
that we dont have more people from cuba
– venezuala – north korea etc – extolling
the life style that their gobts afford to them
[17:18:14] <killerbichon> why are you anti
cuba
[17:18:14] <Kevin_pa> poguemahone
british have a sytem? ;-)
[17:18:27] <poguemahone> the british
system is pretty crap.. but the Scottish
system which has developed recently
seems a more reasonable attempt at
democracy to me
[17:18:29] <yarkenberg> govts
[17:18:30] <human810927> yarkenberg:
good observation
[17:18:35] <lakitu> http://www.ni4d.us/en/
endorsements <– can’t link to much
better here.. at a time when suits run the
government, & technology empowers all
to have a voice, why not give the
government to the people & take it away
from the suits? we are able to do this
now… we have the internet: we can
directly get informed & discuss & vote for
our laws governing us
[17:18:48] <Culpepper> I also expect gold
to eventually settle in the $6-800 range,
which is what I am counting on for my real
value storage.  Things like this BP
opportunity, like Toyota three months ago
and like Ford two years ago are just good
opportunities to make strong profits off of
panic sellers.
[17:18:57] <yarkenberg> human – you
would think…….
[17:19:19] <killerbichon> cp yer a idiot
[17:19:26] <killerbichon> gold 600 bucks
[17:19:28] <lakitu> a fourth american
government branch with equal power as a
check & balance: The People
[17:19:32] <killerbichon> douchebad
[17:19:41] <killerbichon> wtf arwe you on
[17:19:52] <poguemahone> but the US
people dont seem very good at checking
or balancing.. maybe they are too fat for
balance?
[17:19:54] <killerbichon> im sorry
[17:19:55] <Kevin_pa> I am a FAR left
Liberal..but i think we should shut down all
US Miltiary bases in all other countrys
[17:19:59] <danie> killerbichon: warning
one and two
[17:20:02] <killerbichon> to offensive
[17:20:23] <lakitu> poguemahone: we built
a good gov, possibly the best in history:
the american government
[17:20:24] <human810927> 6-800 would be
far below historic averages
[17:20:29] <Kevin_pa> why should the
USA pay for their defense?
[17:20:31] <Culpepper> killerbichon This
level of value is based solely on market
insecurity. When a bull market returns
gold will drop dramatically.
[17:20:34] <yarkenberg> does the warning
clock begin anew each day?
[17:20:40] <Cr0Wz_> killerbichon: I am
not anticuba….I am anticastro….that
intolerant ideologue destroyed a country…
.but what really irks me is when people go
to bat and defend this douchebag…especia
lly people who reside in liberal western
democracies with a nice comfortable life
made for them not by Castro’s failed plan
[17:20:46] <poguemahone> lakitu…   sure..
in 1776 it was very good.
[17:21:01] <killerbichon> i like castro and
che
[17:21:08] <Kevin_pa> yarkenberg i dont
think so..is it not one encedent to the
next?
[17:21:09] <killerbichon> got the tee shirt
[17:21:13] <human810927> The Articles of
Confederation were better
[17:21:17] <killerbichon> yer brainwashed
[17:21:26] <lakitu> it is a good gov – but
we could improve it now that a better
more people’s-choice,-people-powered
government is as-neverbefore feasible:
direct democracy using the internet
[17:21:36] <lakitu> it at least stands
suggestion, & contemplation
[17:21:47] <lakitu> at least blog about it
on your facebook ;)
[17:22:01] <human810927> Let a state try
it lakitu
[17:22:28] <Kahuna> oh my god who can
you trust   ? –  not these guys  – > The
lawsuit filed in Boston states that Barclays,
HSBC and RBS all sold mortgage-backed
securities based on “untrue statements”
[17:22:32] * Funglius ([email protected]
ers.undernet.org) Quit (Read error:
Connection reset by peer)
[17:22:32] <killerbichon> castro live on
cnnnthis hour according to wolf
[17:22:34] <yarkenberg> i think of
california as castro lite
[17:22:38] <lakitu> sure – i say let it run on
“training wheels” as a website, without any
power: trial run.  doing a pretend
“prototype” would be the best way to tell if
it’s practicable
[17:22:41] <lakitu> & worth the change
[17:22:50] <killerbichon> hes gonna warn
about a nuke war
[17:22:53] * X sets mode: +l 80
[17:23:02] <Culpepper> killerbichon
IMHO, a man’s opinion of John Wayne is a
good rule of thumb test of his character
and moral values. To admire John Wayne
is to admire the heroic, the morally noble
and all things dear to the American heart.
To sneer at John Wayne is to sneer at
everything American.
[17:23:24] <Kahuna> The investors accuse
Barclays of mis-selling $141m of securities
between 2005 and 2007. Loans sold to
Cambridge Place by Barclays had the
worst record of any of the defendants,
with 46pc now in delinquency.
[17:23:29] <danie> killerbichon: I’m
interested to see if Castro has any firm
statements about Iran and nuclear arms
[17:23:32] <killerbichon> john wayne was a
fAG
[17:23:41] <PixyStyxx> Culpepper…how
absurd
[17:23:58] <Culpepper> PixyStyxx
Strangly, it works very well.
[17:24:10] <killerbichon> pilgrim
[17:24:23] <killerbichon> dude you cant
base much on that
[17:24:24] <PixyStyxx> Culpepper…no,
you only think it does.
[17:24:27] <danie> PixyStyxx: how do you
like that … “little lady” … LOL
[17:24:28] <lakitu> i.e., a website where
you read senate & congress literature, &
other government literature (including
bills), discuss them, & vote freely for them;
this with no real legislative power, as a
pretend trial run mock 4th Branch (The
People), & see if it’s sensible & barcleared
worthwhile
[17:24:44] * Zeno agrees with PixyStyxx. it’s
absurd
[17:24:44] * danie cringes
[17:24:45] <killerbichon> i base alot on if
ya like george bush or not
[17:24:53] <Culpepper> Zeno LOL
[17:25:07] <Kevin_pa> W Bush?
[17:25:24] <killerbichon> w
[17:25:29] <killerbichon> duuuuubya
[17:25:45] <Culpepper> I have voted
against a member of the Bush family nine
times.  Can anyone top that?
[17:25:48] <lakitu> Lincoln called this A
Government Of The People, By The
People, & For The People. what could be
more coherent with his philosophy than
direct democracy
[17:25:48] <yarkenberg> i like geroge bush
just fine – i think he would be a blast to
party with – im thinking obama takes to
puffs and stares at shit
[17:25:58] <Kevin_pa> SArah Palin was on
Obama about being a rock star..dang..look
at her now
[17:25:59] <PixyStyxx> danie…I was no fan
of John Wayne prior, but when he
cold-cocked an 18-year-old kid in the face
without warning, rhyme or reason – other
than Wayne not liking his long hair, he
exposed himself for what he was – and
there was nothing noble or admirable
about it.
[17:26:29] <lakitu> an elitist government is
the rational alternative’s logical conclusion,
& that has rarely worked, & never for very
long, i would esteem. they fall into
corruption & poor leadership
[17:26:53] <human810927> lakitu: why not
make it a world government?
[17:26:53] <lakitu> as even benign
dictators are succeeded by corrupt or
dumb brothers, etc
[17:27:00] <danie> PixyStyxx: I’m with you
… I have always hoped we’ve left the
subjugation of women behind too .. and a
lot of the John Wayne myth surrounded
that.
[17:27:03] <Kevin_pa> John Wayne was jjst
an actor..same as Reagan
[17:27:03] <lakitu> or militant overtakers
[17:27:19] <killerbichon> * presents
culpepper with a dog buscuit
[17:27:20] <lakitu> like Saddam
[17:27:26] <Kahuna> The hydrogen-power
ed Phantom Eye unmanned airborne
system, a demonstrator that will stay aloft
at 65,000 feet for up to four days, was
unveiled by Boeing today.
[17:27:30] <killerbichon> nice votin
[17:27:36] <yarkenberg> Kevin_pa sarah
palin plays bass – she aint no huckabee but
she can rock it out
[17:27:54] <danie> killerbichon: Culpepper
is not any issue .. last warning
[17:27:56] <Culpepper> “Life is tough, but
it’s a lot tougher when you are stupid” –
John Wayne
[17:27:59] <Kahuna> BAE Systems showed
off Taranis, a UAV that will test the
possibility of developing the first ever
autonomous, stealth Unmanned Combat
Air Vehicle that would ultimately be
capable of precisely striking targets at long
range
[17:28:15] <Kevin_pa> yarkenberg yea she
would not know how to turn it on ;-)
[17:28:30] <killerbichon> cp will you
explain that a love tap not a slur
[17:28:48] <killerbichon> danie seems to
thinks im mad at you
[17:28:53] <killerbichon>  you the man
[17:29:09] <lakitu> human810927: with
each’s consent, i am all for an internation,
or united nations.. it has been said it is
broken & dysfunctional, atm tho
[17:29:10] <yarkenberg> Kevin_pa ahhh
cmon man – she rocks – bass players arent
about being smart – smaart is for doctors
and lawyers
[17:29:27] <lakitu> The United Nations
[17:29:30] <yarkenberg> Kevin_pa sarah
invented octaves on bass
[17:29:36] <Culpepper> killerbichon Nah,
it’s just the channel rules. I know you ain’t
sore, but we gotta play by their rules.
[17:29:40] <human810927> lakitu: why
would people in Minnesota want to be
ruled by the indians and chinese?
[17:29:47] <killerbichon> sore about what
[17:30:00] <Kevin_pa> yarkenberg they
are just ppl to..do not give street cred to
especially lawyers :P
[17:30:07] <human810927> lakitu: the
point i’m getting at is that centralized
political power means taking decision
making *away* from communities
[17:30:10] <lakitu> human810927: i love
my indian minnesotan friends, & have no
beef with the chinese, or any race
wholesale
[17:30:24] <Aleister93> sarah is smarter
than 99% of the people who attack her on
IRC, but then, who isn’t?
[17:30:27] * Zeno ([email protected]
sd1.wa.comcast.net) Quit (Quit: What can
be asserted without evidence can also be
dismissed without evidence.)
[17:30:34] <lakitu> human810927: i am
talking about giving power superabundant
ly to ‘the people
[17:30:34] <lakitu> ‘
[17:30:46] <killerbichon> aleister im
insulted by that you need a warning
[17:30:53] * X sets mode: +l 79
[17:30:59] <killerbichon> danie ale said im
dumb
[17:31:18] <human810927> lakitu: i
disagree, you’re describing a system where
a majority can oppress a minority
[17:31:27] <PixyStyxx> Palin is smart? If
that’s considered true, the dumbing-down
of America has been achieved – in spades.
[17:31:28] <poguemahone> mabye I’m too
dumb to see the evidence that sarah palin
is smart.   sure.. she is smart enough to
appeal to some dumb yanks, but how
much brain power does that take?
[17:31:29] <Aleister93> killerbichon if the
foo shits, swear it.
[17:31:36] <killerbichon> lol
[17:31:38] <Kevin_pa> I swear..I Hope
Palin wins the 2012 election..would be
great payback to all the Republicans
[17:31:53] <killerbichon> ids make a
remark im a def con 2
[17:32:00] * danie just saw a quick short on
TMZ .. Lebron stops to look at a baby that
is crying .. Lebron: “awww, the baby is
crying” .. Father: “yes, the baby is crying
for all of Cleveland” … lololol
[17:32:01] <Kevin_pa> I hope the GOP
takes back congress…woohoo ;-)
[17:32:25] <Kevin_pa> the party of No
would be the party of WHAT?
[17:32:29] <lakitu> human810927: i think
this would deliver us FROM oppression –
oppression by plutocracy in democracy’s
clothing: corporations buying votes & laws
thru lobbying & gifts
[17:32:30] <lakitu> brb
[17:32:30] <yarkenberg> president obama
is practically guaranteeing that sarah could
won in 2012
[17:32:51] <Aleister93> i hope the GOP
filibusters kagel
[17:32:57] <Culpepper> Ths statement
should disqualify anyone from becoming
president.  It violaes the very oath of office
a President must take…
[17:33:01] <human810927> lakitu: i don’t
want to be ruled by digg and youtube
commenters either
[17:33:02] <Culpepper> “We would create
law based on the God of the bible and the
ten commandments.”  Sarah Palin on Fox
News Bill O’Reilly speaking about the
critics of the National Day of Prayer,
saying that the Judeo-Christian belief was
the basis for American law. (05/10/10)
[17:33:07] <Kevin_pa> yarkenberg I hope
she does..If I was pres..I would not want
this era
[17:33:15] <danie> Aleister93 when do
they vote on Kagan?
[17:33:32] <Kevin_pa> oh thunder outside
[17:33:36] <Aleister93> danie not sure
[17:33:54] <Culpepper> Kevin_pa Could be
navel gunfire
[17:34:00] <Culpepper> Kevin_pa Could be
navel gunfire
[17:34:09] <killerbichon> i like kagan …not
[17:34:18] <Bosupa> Four Anti-Muslim
Christians arrested in Dearborn for
harrassing Muslims – http://www.detnews.
com/article/20100712/METRO/7120412/13
61/4-missionaries-charged-in-Dearborn-fes
tival-proselytizing
[17:34:21] <Bosupa> Negeen Mayel, 18, of
California; Nabeel Qureshi, 29, of Virginia;
Paul Rezkalla, 18 of New York, and David
Wood, 34, also of New York, face fines of
up to $500 each and up to 93 days in jail.
Dearborn authorities said the four “chose
to escalate their behavior, which appeared
well-orchestrated and deliberate” as they
handed out religious literature and talking
with people at the festival.
[17:34:26] <Kevin_pa> Culpepper up the
susquehanna river? :-)
[17:34:34] <Culpepper> Kevin_pa LOL
[17:34:47] <killerbichon> how is it jews are
1/3 the usa sc
[17:35:02] <Aleister93> Bosupa they were
exercising their free speech, far as i can
tell. and the cops should be in jail.
[17:35:03] <killerbichon> they make up
.00000001 percent of the usa
[17:35:11] <Kahuna> 6 million jews in the
USA
[17:35:22] <Culpepper> They can read.
[17:35:23] <killerbichon> no protestants
[17:35:24] <Kahuna> 6 million jews in
israel
[17:35:28] <lakitu> human810927: if you
don’t want to ruled by your fellowman,
submit now to do the corporate powers,
for they the hand in the glove of
government, at present – no exaggeration.
. secular governments are succumbent to
secular sins, like greed.. that is the reality
of the current gov’..
[17:35:32] <Kevin_pa> when I read new
online what does (SIC) mean after a word?
[17:35:34] <lakitu> -do
[17:35:41] <killerbichon> 6 catholics 3 jews
[17:35:47] <killerbichon> thats wierd
[17:35:52] <Aleister93> Kevin_pa <sic>
means you are quoting someone with bad
grammar, and you know better
[17:35:59] <lakitu> they are*
[17:36:02] <Kahuna> SIC error has not
been edited  its as it was written
[17:36:08] <lakitu> i gotta proofread =/
[17:36:16] <Kevin_pa> ok thanks..
[17:36:30] <human810927> lakitu: i want
to be undisturbed by criminals is all
[17:36:34] <danie> sic <— spelled
incorrectly
[17:36:50] <Kahuna> danie you is soooo
smart
[17:36:57] <danie> :)
[17:37:20] <Kevin_pa> thanks..I always
wondered what it meant
[17:37:21] <yarkenberg> i remember
people saying that obama is the antichrist –
im starting to believe it – in an anti-feeding
of 5000 – the has president taken the shit
sammich that bush made and is turning it
into a picnic that will feed 300 million
[17:37:42] <Aleister93> Sic is a Latin word
meaning “thus”, “so”, “as such”, or “in such
a manner”. It is used when writing quoted
material to indicate that an incorrect or
unusual spelling, phrase, punctuation or
meaning in the quote has been reproduce
d verbatim from the original and is not a
transcription error (i.e. it appeared thus in
the original). It is normally placed within
the quoted material, in square brackets
and often italicized—[sic]. Alternatively
[17:37:43] <Aleister93> (round brackets)
—(sic).[1]
[17:37:45] <Kahuna> yarkenberg  very
good
[17:38:41] <killerbichon> aleister its on wiki
[17:38:45] <lakitu> human810927: not an
issue for direct democracy anymore than
representative (the current) democracy.
in fact, you might have more content
citizens, as they get their opinions of legal
practice legalized, & would not turn to e.g.
dealing drugs & the hardknock life that
goes with .. it would be more legal &
accepted, & less surrounded by
underhandedness.. Etc
[17:38:52] <killerbichon> cept they say
citation needed
[17:38:55] <killerbichon>  is that it
[17:39:01] <killerbichon> no
[17:39:24] <killerbichon> i love wiki
[17:39:26] <lakitu> for that example of
crime
[17:39:30] <lakitu> sic means as intended
[17:39:32] <Cr0Wz_> Is it me or I just
don’t see the big deal about the Lebron
James hype
[17:39:39] <Culpepper> CM ducks <sic>?
M not ducks<sic>? MR2<sic>! MR
not<sic>!  MR2 CM wings<sic>?  LIB MR
ducks! <sic>
[17:39:43] <lakitu> or “this is as intended”
[17:39:43] <killerbichon> sic  is as is
[17:40:07] <human810927> lakitu: i think
the proposal for direct democracy is
superior to the current systems
[17:40:22] <PixyStyxx> @Cr0Wz_I don’t
grasp MOST hype…but, this country runs
on it
[17:40:35] <human810927> I’ve been
considering it for two decades myself
[17:40:37] <killerbichon> im mad ad yank
tv people that dont know the queens
english for example i c this all the time
[17:40:37] <Kahuna> who/what is LeBron
James  ?
[17:40:47] <PixyStyxx> Athlete
[17:41:01] <danie> The term sic is most
often used in quoted material (usually in
square brackets, and sometimes italicized)
to indicate that the preceding segment of
the quote was copied faithfully, in spite of
a mistake or seeming mistake; that is, that
the mistake or seeming mistake was in the
original text, and not due to misquoting on
the part of the present writer.
[17:41:12] <Cr0Wz_> A basketball player
that is so popular…apparently, he is a real
revenue generator anywhere he goes
[17:41:36] <danie> I was always taught to
use sic for spelling errors when using
quotes in term papers
[17:41:42] <killerbichon> its 45.62 is
pronounced six two not sixtytwo
[17:41:48] <lakitu> great, spread the idea.
voting is power, & as Senator Gravel said:
[17:41:52] <lakitu> Marcus Cicero, over
2000 years ago, defined freedom as
participation in power. If you don’t
participate in power, you are not free.
Whoever has the power owns you. If you
want to be free you have to participate in
power.
[17:41:52] <lakitu> Power is lawmaking; if
you don’t participate in lawmaking, all you
can do live by the laws that are made for
you. Either you live by their laws or you go
to jail. Those who make the law have the
power to make you free. On election day,
you give your power away. Follow the
logic: If freedom is participation in power
and power is lawmaking, then freedom is
participation in lawmaking.
[17:41:59] <killerbichon> fucking yanks
suck
[17:42:05] <Culpepper> killerbichon We
don’t speak the “Queens English”. We got a
couple or four a our own dialects… Then
we got Texas standard English.
[17:42:10] <Cr0Wz_> killerbichon: chill out
[17:42:12] <lakitu> (” “)
[17:42:28] <PixyStyxx> danie…spelling
errors are most often the targets of [sic] –
but it’s applicable in the case of other
grammatical errors, too. :-)
[17:42:59] <Aleister93> a lot of texas
accents are very similar to virginia accents,
many of the settlers of texas were from
virginia, the carolinas, tenn and ky
[17:43:39] <Cr0Wz_> I speak like a New
Yawker
[17:43:46] <danie> I can see that Aleister9
3, there is a similarity
[17:44:19] <Culpepper> Aleister93
Yep..plus we got a healthy blernd a
Mexican, coon*ss n’ a little German mixed
in for good measure.  America is know to
be a melting pot.  Texas is more like a
blender.
[17:44:29] * PlagueRat ([email protected]
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ernet.org) Quit (*.net *.split)
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ightpath.net) Quit (*.net *.split)
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[17:44:33] <lakitu> i lovbe my government,
i don’t want radical change, i want
expansion of the existing motif, into a
more coherent system of the philosophy..
A Government Of The People, By The
People, & For The People.. straight Lincoln
[17:44:37] <yarkenberg> oopsie
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[17:44:49] <lakitu> Direct Democracy is
the way to go, i think.. the way forward.
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254.220-203-24.mc.videotron.ca) has joined
#political
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[17:44:54] <lakitu> imo
[17:44:59] * peterg (~ticksg@modemcable
254.220-203-24.mc.videotron.ca) Quit
(Read error: EOF from client)
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[17:45:07] * X sets mode: +o danie
[17:45:09] <lakitu> it is technologically
feasible now, like never before
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cust99-dsl91-135-8.idnet.net) has joined
#political
[17:45:23] * X sets mode: +l 76
[17:45:53] <killerbichon> the usa is
doomed in my opinion unless obama can
make yall understand that china is way
ahead
[17:46:03] <Culpepper> lakitu No thankie.
We already got too many people votin’.  \
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[17:46:11] <killerbichon> it needs to be
made a contest with a prize
[17:46:23] * X sets mode: +l 78
[17:46:29] <killerbichon> every yank gets a
free something
[17:46:36] * CGold ([email protected]
ightpath.net) has joined #political
[17:46:48] <lakitu> Culpepper: so you
oppose existing suffrages? there should be
a special depowering of your voting power
if you want to take away other people’s
rights to vote
[17:46:48] <Aleister93> The worst that can
happen under monarchy is rule by a single
imbecile, but democracy often means the
rule by an assembly of three or four
hundred imbeciles.–robert anton wilson
[17:46:53] * X sets mode: +l 79
[17:46:58] <killerbichon> ya need to forget
about oil
[17:47:13] <killerbichon> pretend ya didnt
have oil
[17:47:34] <lakitu> Aleister93: there is
collective smoothing out of the imbecile-n
ess – the law of averages & the general
intelligence & goodness of man will surely
prevail
[17:47:41] <human810927> lakitu: others
have suggested increasing the size of
congress to about 10,000 members
[17:47:54] <yarkenberg> fox news just had
a photo of olympia snowe up’ i think she
might be the baby helen thomas gave up
for adoption 63 years ago
[17:48:00] <human810927> and make
them live in their district
[17:48:03] * snaggle (~lmr@c-98-229-131-1
66.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) Quit (Ping
timeout)
[17:48:08] <Culpepper> lakitu Nope, some
peopel have too much of a vested intrest
in government to vote, some people are
too poorly informed to vote and some
people are just too stupid to vote.
[17:48:23] * X sets mode: +l 78
[17:48:28] <lakitu> taking away power &
giving it all or too much to a few people is
the way to get into mis & over structured
governments like nazidom & crazy tribal
kings who sacrifice virgins
[17:48:30] <mmalf> And then there are
people who find voting ugly.
[17:48:34] <Kevin_pa> killerbichon I have
500 gallons of heating oil in my basement..
from whe I swithched to natural gas..want
it? ;-)
[17:48:48] <lakitu> as part of ”good
governing”
[17:48:48] <killerbichon> usa usa usa
[17:48:58] <Aleister93> yarkenberg my
theory is, when bill clinton said, “i did not
have sexual relations with that woman!”,
he ws pointing at helen thomas
[17:49:02] <killerbichon> kein no
[17:49:05] <human810927> http://hanson.
gmu.edu/futarchy.html  there’s another
alternative to democracy which could be
tried lakitu – give it a read some time
[17:49:08] <mmalf> lakitu: The only good
governance is absolute individualist
theocracy where every man is God.
[17:49:15] <killerbichon>  dude call a
disposal comapny
[17:49:18] <Kevin_pa> my heating oil in
the basement is like silver..up and up LOL
[17:49:19] <yarkenberg> lol <Aleister93
[17:49:58] <lakitu> government of the
people has worked this far: why stop
before the logical conclusion, of direct &
everyman democracy
[17:50:02] * Kahuna (~mort@adsl-71-135-
162-198.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) Quit (Quit:
life is tuff then you die)
[17:50:02] <killerbichon> its toxic
[17:50:23] * X sets mode: +l 77
[17:50:27] <lakitu> it is confused to do so
[17:50:27] <Aleister93> democracy… two
wolves and a sheep voting on what to have
for lunch
[17:50:30] <lakitu> imo
[17:50:37] <killerbichon> shit timing why
didnt you burn yer shite
[17:50:43] <Kevin_pa> what is heating oil
going for these days?
[17:50:52] <killerbichon> ng is clean cool
and great
[17:51:06] <killerbichon>  all cars will be
run on ng
[17:51:09] <lakitu> aleister: that is a false
analogy, sheep outnumber wolves in this
world, imo
[17:51:23] <killerbichon>  the usa should
nationalize the filling stations
[17:51:32] <killerbichon> buts thats
unamerican
[17:51:34] <lakitu> which is why the
american government is Good, & has not
failed horribly
[17:51:48] <Kevin_pa> killerbichon why?
[17:52:02] <Culpepper> lakitu The end of
democracy comes when people realize
they can vote themselves anything they
want.  That is were we are today.  We
cannot borrow ourselves to prosperity.
[17:52:08] <lakitu> not to oppose
everything you say Aleister93, you make
good points at times
[17:52:10] <killerbichon> well the gov cant
compete
[17:52:15] <killerbichon> thats unfair
[17:52:21] <lakitu> or many times
[17:52:41] <killerbichon>  the usa gov is
too powerful ten times more powerful
than the oil industry
[17:52:43] <killerbichon> right?
[17:52:48] <lysander> In the beginning,
there was the least retarded of all things,
the creator, and then the creator created
creations, the created, and the created
are, every one of them, relative to the
creator, retarded.  This is the problem of
retardation.  Perhaps the task of retards,
the created, is to realize the creator
within them, and from that be as little
retarded as possible.
[17:52:50] <Kevin_pa> the us gov has
national reserves
[17:53:34] <yarkenberg> the us gov used
to have a national treasure til nic cage
found it
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[17:53:53] * X sets mode: +l 78
[17:54:13] <killerbichon> the usa has
added how much oil a day for how long
[17:54:26] <killerbichon> what the reserve
at theses days
[17:54:33] <lakitu> Culpepper: the will of
the people is Good, & they are intelligent.
our world is generally good & well-organiz
ed, & a sign we should empower these
good & intelligent people, so that THEY
run their lives, & THEY organize their
world…  the american government
worked, why not follow it to a logical
conclusion, or at least a logical step
forward
[17:54:40] <Kevin_pa> yarkenberg Nicolas
cafe made a ton of money off those movies
;-)
[17:55:32] <killerbichon>  the usa must
have a decades worth of oil to carry on as is
[17:55:47] <killerbichon> say oil was cut off
[17:55:53] <Kevin_pa> the 3d tv///won;t be
long everyone one has one
[17:55:58] <Aleister93> lakitu i think we’re
a very promising young species, but
basically we’re still living in the planet of
the apes.
[17:56:09] <human810927> i agree with
Aleister93
[17:56:21] <lakitu> it would only be a
branch.. this isn’t exactly direct
democracy, but american semi-direct
democracy: Four Branches, Executive,
Legislative, Judicial, now with The Populus,
& they would be equal & in check &
balance of & with each other
[17:56:28] <lakitu> (is IRC really the forum
for this?)
[17:56:50] <lakitu> Aleister93: agreed we
are primitive.. we must civilize, but . . .
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[17:57:00] <lysander> lakitu, have you
considered a Caesar or Napoleon, for the
Populus?
[17:57:03] <Kevin_pa> IRC was made for
open discussions
[17:57:06] <yarkenberg> PEEEeeeeee
Peeee!
[17:57:33] <Kevin_pa> lakitu you want to
go back to BBS?
[17:57:44] <P-1> good gawd…lol…wanna
hear a psychotic republican making violent
phone threats?….listen to the full unedited
Mel Gibson tape lol
[17:57:46] * yarkenberg hands P-1 a
maidrite sammich
[17:57:50] <Aleister93> The Constitution
admittedly has a few defects and
blemishes, but it still seems a hell of a lot
better than the system we have now.–rob
ert anton wilson
[17:57:51] <P-1> :D
[17:58:02] <lysander> Aleister93, agreed
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#political
[17:58:27] <lakitu> it is a diccult slow
process, & i don’t have the answers to
How do we civilize generally.. altho all of
our drops in the bucket add up;: – we’ve
gotten this far!
[17:58:29] <yarkenberg> im thking mel
gison wont be getting and academy awards
for a looooong time
[17:58:53] * X sets mode: +l 80
[17:59:04] <Kevin_pa>  mel gibson is
supper rich..I dont think he cares
[17:59:14] <P-1> mel should get an
academy award for that phone recording
lolol
[17:59:21] <yarkenberg> P-1 lol
[17:59:25] <killerbichon> i love mel
[17:59:38] <killerbichon> way to tell yer
new whore
[17:59:47] <poguemahone> mel gibson
fought for the freedom of scotland.. he
may hate jews, women etc, but at least he
is nice to ginger men
[17:59:55] <Kevin_pa>  mel gibson is
australian..he can go live in the outback ;-)
[18:00:01] <yarkenberg> @P-1 im thinking
the best he can hope for now is for alec
baldwin to get him a job on the series alec
is in
[18:00:18] <Aleister93> in australia, mel
would be considered a racial progressive
<G>
[18:00:33] <marc_luc> mel gibson hates
everyone; he is a loser, his career is over
[18:00:37] <lysander> if revealing
recordings and what folks do drunk is in
vogue, why not do it indiscriminately
[18:00:46] <lysander> others in hollywood,
those in DC
[18:00:50] * Ragtime^ ([email protected].
7.41) has joined #political
[18:00:53] * X sets mode: +l 81
[18:00:54] <killerbichon> mel is a god will
remain a god
[18:01:02] <lysander> yeah
[18:01:04] <lysander> haha
[18:01:11] <lakitu> lysander: how do you
mean?
[18:01:20] <^AAman> Culpepper–GOP
Senator: Extend Bush Tax Cuts For
Wealthy Even If They Add To Deficit, But
Not Jobless Benefits
[18:01:25] <lakitu> re Ceaser or Napolean
for “The Populus” branch
[18:01:31] <lysander> ah
[18:01:35] <poguemahone> you can take
mel’s career, but you’ll never take his
freeeeeeedom
[18:01:43] <^AAman> Leave no milliionai
re behind, only the middle class behind
[18:01:51] <killerbichon> rap guys use the
n word why cant mel
[18:01:56] <lysander> lakitu, well, if by
populus you mean for the people, you will
need some real strength and leadership to
get there
[18:02:01] <marc_luc> mel gibson acts like
a bitter old man
[18:02:02] <Kevin_pa>  Napolean
Dynamite? LOL That woujld kids think of
when you say Napolean
[18:02:24] <Kevin_pa> marc_luc he is a
rich old man
[18:02:25] <lysander> lol
[18:02:32] <Aleister93> Kevin_pa what
about the tyrannical pig from “animal
farm”?
[18:02:49] <marc_luc> apparently he isn’t
happy with being rich
[18:03:03] <yarkenberg> Aleister93??? ippy
hasnt been here in years
[18:03:04] <Kevin_pa> Aleister93 he was
Glenn Beck ;-)
[18:03:24] <killerbichon> like mel the one
thing i hate about irc is racism and black
people
[18:03:40] <Aleister93> Kevin_pa glenn
beck is an enemy of tyrants
[18:03:42] <^AAman> Glenn Beck invites
Mel Gibson as a guest expert
[18:03:52] <lakitu> lysander: my idea is
plausible, & i am giving it away; build a
website that allows people to discuss &
vote on legislation; let it gain popularity &
reknownedness; induct it thru popularity
(popular pressure) into government: the
way it itself operates!  in other words,
permeate goverment based on the same
philosophy it itself runs on
[18:04:00] <Kevin_pa> Aleister93 what? he
is a tryant
[18:04:30] <Culpepper> I’ve talked to Ippy
recently…not sure which channel.
[18:04:34] <Kevin_pa> Beck says one
ting..and his flock say..yes yes..but he is
the oposite
[18:04:34] <^AAman> Beck has no
toleration for the opposition — definition
of a tyrant
[18:04:41] <yarkenberg> mel gibson and
samir shabazz should try their hand at co
hososting a raio show
[18:04:44] <lakitu> law by popularity,
rather than elitist corporate purchase,
along with some moral & civic backbone..
[18:04:49] <tredlord> glenn beck has no
power over you
[18:04:50] <yarkenberg> cohosting
[18:04:58] <Aleister93> ^AAman you
don’t know what the fuck you’re talking
about.
[18:05:01] <tredlord> rush limbaugh has
no power over you
[18:05:05] <Kevin_pa> or Rush Limpdick
[18:05:06] <tredlord> ann coulter has no
power over you
[18:05:11] <^AAman> Aleister93-you wish
[18:05:14] <tredlord> obama, does have
power over you
[18:05:20] <killerbichon> just you treadlord
[18:05:21] <yarkenberg> pelosi has powers
over me —- mmmmmmm
[18:05:29] <^AAman> Words are power
[18:05:38] <yarkenberg> annn coulter has
power over me – mmmmmmmm
[18:05:40] <lysander> Mel Gibson should
star in a comedy, one that makes fun of
the journalists
[18:05:41] <killerbichon> hey tredlord
hows sarah palin
[18:05:44] <Kevin_pa> ann coulter said last
week..Cheneys daughter shold be fired
from what postion she holds
[18:06:06] <killerbichon> tripp is a year old
now
[18:06:16] <Kevin_pa> lysander he did
that..as an ad executive
[18:06:16] <killerbichon> hows bristol palin
[18:06:32] <lysander> what movie?
[18:06:32] <killerbichon> she horny
[18:06:51] <killerbichon> levi is a cool name
[18:07:01] <yarkenberg> very biblical
[18:07:03] <lakitu> Levi is
[18:07:04] <killerbichon> like the denim’
[18:07:05] <Kevin_pa> lysander i foerget
the name..he could hear womens thoughts
[18:07:19] <killerbichon> trig?
[18:07:26] <killerbichon> not so much
[18:07:37] <^AAman> Ann Coutler photo:
“Where erections go to die.”
[18:07:43] <P-1> trig lol
[18:07:48] <Kevin_pa> lol
[18:07:57] <killerbichon> hes a triggeered
to die arond 20ish
[18:08:02] <tredlord> ^AAman nah,
words are put out into the marketplace
for consumption by free willing people,
that’s freedom, not tyranny
[18:08:28] <^AAman> Conservative
pundit Ann Coulter recently got her
mouth wired shut after she fell down the
stairs. It seems Ebay has gotten over 300
million bids so far for the stair that broke
her jaw.
[18:08:29] <killerbichon> trip is a trip
[18:08:52] <Kevin_pa> lol
[18:09:21] <^AAman> tredlord–Anyone
who advocates purity of political thought
and action advocates tryany
[18:09:21] <killerbichon> who the feck
names there kids trip and trig
[18:09:30] <killerbichon> seriously
[18:09:37] <yarkenberg> hippies
[18:09:47] <killerbichon> are the fecking
ponies
[18:09:57] <Kevin_pa> killerbichon micael
jackson?
[18:10:04] <Kevin_pa> woo hoo
[18:10:10] <killerbichon> blanket
[18:10:25] <Aleister93> i think it was
extremely brave of sarah palin to have a
retarded child, knowing it would almost
certainly grow up to become a democrat.
[18:10:26] <killerbichon> i thought the
southpark show was a joke
[18:10:35] <Kevin_pa> nope
[18:10:36] <killerbichon> was i wrong
[18:10:42] <yarkenberg> i had a dog that i
named cat
[18:11:21] <killerbichon> weirdos name a
kid trig
[18:11:24] * ElNino^ (~helly@71-90-47-20
0.dhcp.ftbg.wi.charter.com) Quit (Read
error: Operation timed out)
[18:11:37] <killerbichon> yedogs ok a cat
sure
[18:11:40] <killerbichon>  a baby
[18:11:45] <^AAman> Native Americans
in Arizona Vow to Deport All Non-Native
Americans
[18:11:46] <killerbichon> NOT
[18:11:49] <Kevin_pa> glenn beck says we
are not suppose to talk about ppls kids
[18:12:10] <Aleister93> killerbichon you’d
rather they named him diffeq?
[18:12:10] * X sets mode: +l 80
[18:12:18] <Kevin_pa> daddy? daddy?
[18:12:22] <^AAman> Aleister93– If
Democrats really wanted to destroy the
U.S., they would vote GOP
[18:12:25] <Aleister93> ^AAman they
tried that bewteen 1600 and 1890, and
failed.
[18:12:38] <Culpepper> I have a dog
named Kitty.  We got the don when my
youngest was about 2 years old.  She
followed the puppy all over the ouse saying
“Kitty Kitty Kitty”.  The name stuck.
[18:12:38] <Kevin_pa> ^AAman I am LOL
[18:13:16] <Aleister93> ^AAman did the
US go into debt faster, BEFORE, or AFTER
the demoncraps took over congress in
2007?
[18:13:48] <Kevin_pa> I have no animals..t
hey would die
[18:14:38] <^AAman> Aleister93–
Democrats passed the Bush budget —
damn it
[18:14:47] <Kevin_pa> I don’t eat days at a
time..they would starve
[18:15:09] <Aleister93> ^AAman they
passed the pelosi budget
[18:15:22] <killerbichon> Aleistter93 yer a
what?
[18:15:29] <killerbichon> are you american
[18:15:36] <^AAman> Aleister93– No
they passed the Bush budget
[18:15:48] <^AAman> College dropout-tu
rned Fox News host Glenn Beck has
announced that he’s starting a university in
his own name.
[18:15:52] <killerbichon> prove you are
american
[18:15:53] <Kevin_pa>  pelosi budget? she
has her own budget?
[18:16:11] <^AAman> subscribe to Beck’s
paranoid, conspiratorial worldview for the
low price of $9.95 per month.
[18:16:12] <marc_luc> who cares?
[18:16:17] <killerbichon> you may be a
russian spy you maynot be
[18:16:45] <lakitu> <Kevin_pa> I don’t eat
days at a time..they would starve <– =))
[18:16:51] <killerbichon> who you work for
Aleisister93
[18:17:00] <^AAman> Glenn Beck:
Studies in Moral Courage: Joe McCarthy
[18:17:00] * Ranchy (~chatzilla@70-101-11
3-53.dsl1-field.roc.ny.frontiernet.net) has
joined #political
[18:17:05] <Kevin_pa> ^AAman Beck U is
higher..only if you have EXTREME Beck
subscription (SIC) LOL
[18:17:23] <killerbichon> hes not answering
[18:17:25] <marc_luc> is Glen Beck a
superstar on this channel?
[18:17:27] * X sets mode: +l 81
[18:17:32] <^AAman> Beck U:  : Paranoia
As Therapeutic Alternative
[18:17:34] <killerbichon> thats not looking
good
[18:17:36] * X sets mode: -o aero
[18:17:48] * killerbichon slaps Aleister93
around a bit with a large trout
[18:17:55] * killerbichon slaps Aleister93
around a bit with a large trout
[18:17:57] <human810927> marc_luc:
unfortunately too many people are still
watching dumb-your-brain tv
[18:18:09] <Kevin_pa> lakitu is why I do
not have pets
[18:18:22] <^AAman> Glenn Beck crazy
quote:  ”When I see a 9/11 victim family on
television, or whatever, I’m just like, ‘Oh
shut up’ I’m so sick of them because
they’re always complaining.”
[18:18:22] <marc_luc> ppl in this channel
constantly refer to glen beck
[18:18:35] <killerbichon> who
[18:18:41] <lakitu> for anyone interested
in Direct Democracy, check out
http://www.ni4d.us/ … “We now have
complete suffrage on WHO can vote;
[18:18:41] <lakitu> we continue to fight for
complete suffrage on WHAT we can vote
on
[18:18:43] <lakitu> “
[18:18:49] <killerbichon> the neonazi from
fox?
[18:18:49] <lakitu> sorry – formatting
[18:18:57] <killerbichon> i dont see that
[18:19:03] * Ras_p ([email protected]
ft.bellsouth.net) has joined #political
[18:19:09] <Kevin_pa> ^AAman he stole
that from ann Coulter ;-)
[18:19:10] <Aleister93> ^AAman i bet you
can’t provide a context for that. this is
because you’re quoting ot of context.
[18:19:18] <marc_luc> i don’t think
referring to glen beck makes your
argument stronger
[18:19:22] <yarkenberg> ^AAman beck
was right – it was just the chickens coming
home to roost
[18:19:25] <Aleister93> or worse, you’re
quoting assholes who quoted out of
context.
[18:19:27] * X sets mode: +l 82
[18:19:31] <^AAman> marc_luc—Ann
Coulter We should invade their countries,
kill their leaders and convert them to
Christianity
[18:19:45] <marc_luc> so glen beck is the
level of discourse on this channel
[18:19:47] <killerbichon> welpppppppppp
im outta here folkies from buttt fuck egypt
[18:19:55] <Aleister93> ^AAman i can do
that too… “I am proud to sit here at the
right hand of Satan.”–walter cronkite
[18:19:59] <killerbichon> yall have a good
ole time
[18:20:20] <lakitu> bye killerbichon.. enjoy
the pyramids
[18:20:26] <lakitu> & Sphinx.. & sand
[18:20:27] <marc_luc> yes, ragtime refers
to ann coulter all the time
[18:20:35] <fdorrb__> cya killerbichon
[18:20:42] <marc_luc> american superstars
[18:21:16] <fdorrb__> ozymandius
[18:21:37] <Kevin_pa> ow about Pat
Bucahanan..Spelling…from Nixon to? ;-)
[18:22:26] * fdorrb__ is now known as fdorrb
[18:22:29] <marc_luc> all these right wing
political pundits are fodder for the
consumption of the masses
[18:23:03] <Kevin_pa> i use to love cross
fire on CNN
[18:23:07] * Queenie (~teodora@5352A985
.cable.casema.nl) Quit (Read error:
Operation timed out)
[18:23:27] * X sets mode: +l 81
[18:23:32] <^AAman> Republican
Children Say the Darndest Things About
Barack Obama!
[18:23:39] <marc_luc> with that stupid
little jerk carlson
[18:23:54] <Kevin_pa> tucker use to have
a bow tie
[18:24:08] <marc_luc> yes, is he on fox
now?
[18:24:24] <^AAman> Is Obama really
gonna make momma get an abortion?
[18:24:29] <marc_luc> he is another
buckley jr
[18:24:43] <Kevin_pa> sure Tucker cArlson
was head of programming on?
[18:24:46] <lakitu> i better head to my
little tent & veiled woman.. maybe she will
show some acceptance for a hard day in
the broiling heat =P later body-politick
[18:24:55] <lakitu> (another possible name
for the Populus branch)
[18:25:26] <^AAman> Is Rush Limbarg
gonna get Christians to stop Obama before
he gets to the Whites House and takes
controls of the social securities
[18:25:37] <lakitu> ;)   Out.
[18:26:13] <Kevin_pa> AAman I yelled at a
priest the other day..I am going to hell ;-)
[18:26:33] <Kevin_pa> man of god or
not..get out of my way
[18:26:34] <lakitu> nah, just going to the
back of the pews =P =PP later
[18:28:35] * Guitardoc ([email protected]
rs.undernet.org) has joined #political
[18:28:37] <Kevin_pa> in Roman Catholic
mass..you know what you are getting..wh
en I go to other masees..like Presbyterian.
.they stand there and tell long storys
End of #political buffer    Mon Jul 12 18:28:39 2010

[18:31:25] <lakitu> http://www.mediafire.com/?ejv3nygmztm <– political discussion about Direct Democracy Using The Internet..  pretty good i hope, i am happy with it.  .. text file, no virus
[18:32:03] <Magnus_RM> sounds dangerous
[18:32:11] <lakitu> i made it out
[18:32:18] <lakitu> even walking on both legs =P
[18:33:30] <lakitu> but – for what i think you mean, http://pastebin.com/qgq8jhNw <– plain hypertext version
[18:34:15] <lakitu> starts at 17:03:39
[18:35:01] <Magnus_RM> i meant that Direct Democracy Using The Internet sounds dangerous
[18:35:02] <lakitu> in short, Direct Democracy is the logical conclusion of our current system, & has just been made feasible by computers & the internet, imo
[18:35:06] <lakitu> oh =PP
[18:35:24] <lakitu> (& no i know i’m not the first to think or say this)
[18:35:48] <lakitu> well, government By The People, For The People has worked as a wild success – look at USA
[18:36:06] * snaggle ([email protected]) has joined #philosophical
[18:36:33] <lakitu> only the corporate & non “body-politick” elements have made it impure: corporate lobbying, & corruption/greed/powerhunger etc
[18:37:41] <lakitu> i in short suggest we include a Populus Branch as a 4th co-equal branch of government to the american democracy
[18:38:25] <lakitu> so it is not exactly a direct democracy, but a 1/4 direct democracy, with Executive/Legislative/Judicial still in power, & of equal power with the Populus (body-politick) branch
[18:39:19] <lakitu> athens used a direct democracy, it seems
[18:39:26] <lakitu> in golden era athens
[18:40:28] <eristikofils> athens had several gradations of human, only one of which could vote
[18:40:43] <eristikofils> citizens, women, foreigners, slaves
[18:40:57] <eristikofils> and of the citizens, the most wealthy manipulated the rest
[18:41:11] <lakitu> well, i am taking out the good part, & using that
[18:41:16] <eristikofils> awesome
[18:41:19] <eristikofils> that’s what i do too
[18:41:27] <lakitu> like taking salt out of the sea – only want the good part, or the useful-to-me part
[18:41:31] <lakitu> the part useful to me
[18:41:40] <lakitu> only want that part
[18:42:10] <lakitu> & not enough change there, huh? wealthy manipulating the rest
[18:42:15] <lakitu> veiled plutocracy
[18:42:17] <eristikofils> LionClan’s comments earlier make me think of the fundamental basis of civilization as being faith
[18:42:45] <eristikofils> so long as people have faith that their civilization is good, or ruled by the good, etc. then they will conform to its cultural and other values
[18:42:51] <eristikofils> in behavior if not belief
[18:42:53] <lakitu> it is the natural conclusion of a government “Of The People, By The People, & For The People”, as Lincoln famously said; & we should follow the natural conclusion of that philosophy.. this organization said this:
[18:43:00] <eristikofils> but once the faith is broken, the civilization will dissipate
[18:43:16] <lakitu> “We now have complete suffrage on WHO can vote;
[18:43:16] <lakitu> we continue to fight for complete suffrage on WHAT we can vote on”
[18:43:41] <lakitu> i address a similiar issue in that dialogue, eristikofils
[18:43:43] <eristikofils> well, a better immigration policy might help too
[18:44:45] <lakitu> in short, i say this: Man is Good, & Man is Wise; let Him govern Himself well because He can & does if allowed.
[18:45:19] <eristikofils> well, alright. but i still think women should be included too
[18:45:35] <lakitu> the American Government has proven the general Goodness & intelligence of Man: government of the people was a wild & exuberant success, of the highest measures in history
[18:45:41] <lakitu> all history
[18:46:19] <ArcheopteryX> oh no! there’s rumours that FermiLab found the higgs boson!
[18:46:32] <lakitu> hey Arch
[18:46:39] <eristikofils> sweet!
[18:46:41] * LionClan ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout)
[18:46:44] <ArcheopteryX> hey lakitu =]
[18:47:06] * X sets mode: +o ArcheopteryX
[18:47:09] <lakitu> Man includes women, it is the whatever-trope form
[18:47:19] <lakitu> metonym, or whatever it is
[18:47:37] <lakitu> but re Athens, that’s a good point
[18:47:42] * ArcheopteryX changes topic to ‘Daily Planet reports rumours that FermiLab found Higgs Boson’
[18:47:43] <lakitu> i mean all humankind
[18:47:47] * ArcheopteryX sets mode: -o ArcheopteryX
[18:48:10] <eristikofils> absorbing women into ‘man’ is a bad idea
[18:48:18] <eristikofils> it’s consistently been shown to produce problems
[18:48:43] <ArcheopteryX> right.  we need a new term to describe you humans.  How about “pondlife”?
[18:48:52] <ArcheopteryX> oh.  wait….   that’s me…..
[18:49:22] <lakitu> All Humankind is Good, & All Humankind is Wise – let Humankind be its own Governing body. plutocracy doesn’t work; malignant dictatorship doesn’t work; monarchy doesn’t work; few systems work
[18:49:41] <lakitu> represenative democracy has shown promise: take it to its natural conclusion
[18:49:52] <lakitu> : Direct Democracy
[18:50:00] <eristikofils> i don’t think representative democracy works anymore
[18:50:10] <eristikofils> we need direct democracy and accountability
[18:50:19] * LionClan ([email protected]) has joined #philosophical
[18:50:29] <lakitu> rock
[18:50:33] <ArcheopteryX> but first you must raise all humans to a level of education and ability to think so that it could actually work, lakitu
[18:50:55] <lakitu> (or, 1/4 Direct Democracy (Populus/Executive/Legislative/Judicial)..
[18:52:28] <lakitu> ArcheopteryX: i think they are there, & the ability to discuss & their ability to absorb should not be underestimated: we can teach other, & the smarter & more informed can inform the less so, & we can generally prevail our goodness & intelligence thru discussion & voting.. i think
[18:52:47] <lakitu> these are information processors, they can greatly help inform
[18:52:52] * lakitu means computers
[18:53:31] <lakitu> direct democracy was basically infeasible before. a city, maybe. not a nation as big as mine
[18:54:14] <lakitu> the computer has changed that.. a government site to vote & discuss would be optimal imo use of the computers re government
[18:54:42] <lakitu> empower & inform – done as grassroots as possible
[18:55:00] <LionClan> Syracuse was the greek colony that became larger than any of the greek city-states
[18:55:32] <LionClan> Socrates asked the people of Syracuse if their democracy fell, would they even notice
[18:55:55] <ArcheopteryX> I don’t share your optimism, lakitu.  Humans have shown themselves time and time again to be capable of great insanity
[18:56:02] <LionClan> If a tree fell in the forest, and no one heard, would it make a sound
[18:56:41] <LionClan> The oligarchy saw this as corrupting the youth, and gave him the hemlock
[18:56:50] <lakitu> ArcheopteryX: we are bad in a few spots, but those spots have not ruined the bunch… America proves this, i think
[18:57:06] <LionClan> it is a common thing for belief in democracy to continue long past it’s demise
[18:57:10] <lakitu> a government by the people for the people has prevailed Goodness & organization
[18:57:17] <LionClan> Octavian maintained senatorial elections even though he had made the office of senator meaningless
[18:57:27] <LionClan> The people liked elections.
[18:58:12] <LionClan> not that the secretaries of State or Treasury would change
[18:58:36] <LionClan> or the war lessen, or the healthcare situation improve
[18:59:47] <LionClan> for every good idea the corporate cleptocracy can think of a worse one that is more profitable
[19:00:09] <lakitu> i gotta book – later, people of the world body politick – take your governments because they pressure & enforce things in your life =P … as Gravel said…
[19:00:10] <lakitu> “Marcus Cicero, over 2000 years ago, defined freedom as participation in power.
[19:00:10] <lakitu> If you don’t participate in power, you are not free. Whoever has the power owns you. If you want to be free you have to participate in power.
[19:00:10] <lakitu> Power is lawmaking; if you don’t participate in lawmaking, all you can do live by the laws that are made for you. Either you live by their laws or you go to jail. Those who make the law have the power to make you free. On election day, you give your power away.
[19:00:10] <lakitu> Follow the logic: If freedom is participation in power and power is lawmaking, then freedom is participation in lawmaking.
[19:00:18] * marykaa ([email protected]) has joined #philosophical
[19:00:25] <lakitu> ” – http://www.ni4d.us/en/node/64
[19:01:11] * heartlady ([email protected]) has joined #philosophical
[19:01:28] * marykaa ([email protected]) has left #philosophical
[19:02:51] <LionClan> do you mean we should all be lawyers
[19:04:46] * wau2 ([email protected]) has joined #philosophical
[19:07:38] <Magnus_RM> why should i trust that something good comes out of a system where people lacking education in a field are entrusted to make important decisions in that field?
[19:08:19] <Magnus_RM> and especially when i know how easily peoples opinion are affected by the pressure of media
[19:09:38] <lakitu> wau2: http://pastebin.com/qgq8jhNw & — my buffer save isn’t working – if someone would be so benevolent, would they save their buffer & paste it to www.pastebin.com or www.shorttext.com & paste the link? – Waub this is Direct Democracy discussions
[19:10:57] <pepper> Magnus, I think you shouldn’t. You should instead make a fierce revolution.
[19:12:28] <Magnus_RM> pepper, there are various options
[19:12:31] * Wilf ([email protected]) has joined #philosophical
[19:12:59] * X sets mode: +l 36
[19:13:55] <LionClan> The world as a totality of facts is a political world.
[19:14:04] <LionClan> Filled with official stories, and officials to insist they are true.
[19:14:17] <Wilf> bs lion
[19:14:27] <pepper> Magnus, agreed, but none of them should include evading your informed, merited, educated, expert opinion, by social trust of popular idiocy.
[19:14:27] <Wilf> hello btw
[19:14:51] * ArcheopteryX ([email protected]
us.com) Quit (Read error: EOF from client)
[19:15:39] * Magnus_RM looks at pepper through a magnifying glass
[19:15:57] <pepper> iiii
[19:16:12] <pepper> it huuuurts

1059 matches; 100% of #philosophical

[11:23:51] <lakitu> if anyone’s bored, i have a log
from yesterday; i advocated & defended Direct
Democracy using the internet
[11:23:52] <JohnGuru> hey there lakitu :)
[11:23:55] <IDT> people thought that when they
got a black president life would be much better
[11:24:06] <lakitu> hey there i am .. or here.. —
confusion!!
[11:24:07] <lakitu> jk
[11:24:22] <lakitu> so.. Direct Democracy
[11:24:22] <IDT> hello, its the same system, the
same model, the same hierarchial structures,
everything is the same
[11:24:29] <lakitu> hi
[11:25:15] <IDT> left and right are wings on the
same bird
[11:26:02] <lakitu> http://shorttext.com/1rqlywc
19c ,
[11:26:08] <JohnGuru> lakitu, the problem with
direct democracy is the same as th eproblem
with all other governmental forms: they’re a
government, and government always becomes a
tyranny
[11:26:18] <lakitu> & if you’re really interested:
http://pastebin.com/qgq8jhNw
[11:26:22] <Magnus_RM2> if anyone is bored,
but feel they are not enough bored yet, i have a
….
[11:26:23] <Magnus_RM2> :)
[11:26:25] <JohnGuru> even democracies can be
a tyranny
[11:27:01] <IDT> its the same structure, in
democracies its just hidden behind a veil of
everyone pretending to be equals and pals
[11:27:22] <lakitu> JohnGuru: i said, Man is
Good, & Man is Wise – of course generally; so He
should rule Himself..  representative democracy
– a diluted form of dir3ect democracy – has been
a raging success.. why not take it to its logical
conclusion
[11:27:24] <lakitu> ?
[11:27:28] <IDT> beneath that veil its the same
system, the same old hierarchy, the same old
master servant relationship
[11:27:56] <IDT> of necessity
[11:28:05] <Magnus_RM2> man is not just good
and wise, he is bad and foolish too
[11:28:16] <lakitu> & also: you should all eat
Thai Kitchen brand Hot & Sour Soup..  now
back to the show
[11:28:25] <lakitu> not just Magnus, but generally
[11:29:19] <lakitu> prevailing good: we slayed
nazidom, & american democracy – government
Of The People By The People & For The People,
WORKS
[11:29:20] <lakitu> imo
[11:29:33] <IDT> the socialists think they are
revolutionaries, they are just painting the system
in different colors
[11:29:35] <lakitu> prevailingLY good – we are
prevailingly good.. sorry
[11:29:42] <JohnGuru> lakitu, there’s a PBS
series in three episodes discussing the history of
Athenian democracy; its rise to civilization and
its eventual demise. It’s the best example I know
of how a direct democracy can ruin a society
[11:29:53] <JohnGuru> the series is called
“Greeks: Crucible of Civilization”
[11:30:41] <lakitu> well here is what i suggest;
not per se direct democracy.. hemisemi direct
democracy – Executive, Legislative, Judicial, &
Popular branches, all in power & all of co-equal
power
[11:30:42] <JohnGuru> to put it simply, Pericles
voiced a plan to the Athenians to destroy the
Spartans once and for all, in a quick and decisive
war. But instead it led to the disastrous
Peloponnesian war,
[11:30:46] <JohnGuru> and when it was over,
athens lay in ruins
[11:31:13] <lakitu> hence the check’s & balances
of Executive Legislative & Judicial
[11:31:18] <JohnGuru> along the way, the
democratic majority also decided to kill Socrates
[11:31:19] <lakitu> JG
[11:31:28] <IDT> people in this culture has tried
every possible way to make the system better…
there is nothing new in this system.. the only
option is to walk away from it, find a different
way of life
[11:31:33] <commonman> representive
democracy has been a failure, the private sector
is the vampire feeding of the public insritutions
[11:31:39] <JohnGuru> lakitu, so you’re talking
about a constitutional democracy rather than a
direct democracy
[11:31:41] <lakitu> injustice will never fully be
cured.. we are imperfect, & eternally so . . .
[11:32:11] <IDT> how many ideologies has been
tried in an attempt to make the beast more
tame? hundreds, maybe thousands. How much
ink has been spilled? Enough to fill an ocean
probably
[11:32:14] <lakitu> commonman: it is been
raging but not complete success – we need the
commonman to reign in the corporate forces
[11:32:31] <IDT> or at least a very large lake… :)
[11:32:46] <IDT> and how many words have
been uttered
[11:32:50] <lakitu> JohnGuru: lemme get a quick
lesson on that, brb..
[11:33:00] <IDT> when will this beast be tamed?
When will it do what its supposed to do?
[11:33:01] <JohnGuru> lakitu, we could do that.
Regulating commerce was a successful strategy
with FDR, and Ronald Reagun all but destroyed it
[11:33:11] * lakitu is no jurisprudential philosopher
[11:33:13] <JohnGuru> Ronald Raygun, I mean
[11:33:54] <JohnGuru> anti-trust laws indeed.
They’re all but meaningless now
[11:34:12] <commonman> lakitu, Michale Moore
has put but a dent in the armour as a
commonman but he has to hire secuity to potect
is family
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-153.client.mchsi.com) has joined #philosophical
[11:35:34] <lakitu> commonman: i liked, for
being simple & not meticulous, his last
documentary – good popularizing of new
business models, that are ‘socialistic’ or
‘communistic’ in their form of wealth dividing,
etc
[11:36:14] <lakitu> JohnGuru: Wiki is saying we –
you & i – have a constitutional (“liberal”)
democracy already
[11:36:27] <JohnGuru> wiki is a fool
[11:36:54] <IDT> how would you like to live?
[11:36:55] <JohnGuru> we have a constitutional
republic
[11:36:58] <lakitu> well i don’t disagree exactly,
but.. what is the hold up  / wrong with this
picture
[11:37:08] * RevBrownAFK is now known as
RevBrownWrk
[11:37:11] <RevBrownWrk> Back
[11:37:37] <JohnGuru> in a democracy, people
vote for actions, policies, laws. In a republic,
they only vote for people, who in turn take the
actions, decide the policies, and frame the laws
[11:37:40] <lakitu> are there any countries with
the government model i outlined
[11:37:42] <lakitu> ?
[11:37:47] <lakitu> right
[11:37:54] <lakitu> i know we’re republic-an
[11:38:16] <lakitu> re have a representative
democracy, as i understood it.. right?
[11:38:20] <lakitu> re/we
[11:38:22] <JohnGuru> the form of the american
government is very similar to the roman empire,
isn’t it
[11:38:25] * Mnemomeme (mnemomeme@173-3
1-91-153.client.mchsi.com) Quit (Read error:
Operation timed out)
[11:39:25] <JohnGuru> one chief executive who
is above the law and can do whatever he wants
because he owns the military and the police
forces; a senate who sets up laws but doesn’t
control anything, and they added a judiciary who
is free to express opinions about the law
[11:41:32] <IDT> the romans also used a falcon
as their symbol no?
[11:41:50] <JohnGuru> did they?
[11:41:53] <IDT> or the winged bird
[11:41:59] <JohnGuru> I think it was an eagle
[11:42:05] <IDT> oh right
[11:42:08] <IDT> it might have been
[11:42:27] <lakitu> the senate has influence, no?
they are a rougly co-equal branch of the most
highest branches of government..  i mean, i
heard the president can declare an emergency
war.. so he has power they do not.. (no?) – but
the senate is not impotent, in my belief..
[11:44:29] <JohnGuru> we all know the senate
can hold hearings, don’t we. And they can hold
witnesses in contempt, and issue subpoenas
[11:44:45] <JohnGuru> but the Justice
Department is a branch of the President’s office
[11:45:54] <JohnGuru> if they want to act, they
have to act by passing a law .. and the law can be
as specific and limited in scope as they want it to
be, but they also run the risk of the SC deciding
against them
[11:46:26] <JohnGuru> in the recent financial
crisis, there was some concern about congress
passing laws that applied to one specific company
[11:46:56] <JohnGuru> another problem is that
the president can veto a law
[11:47:02] <lakitu> & anyway – what is the hold
up on letting the people rule themselves?  they
have shown their Goodness & Wisdom in
successfully running the most respected etc
nation under a representative democracy: the
people even the common slob voting works, & it
works better than fascist or elitist even maybe
meritocratic government
[11:48:32] <JohnGuru> well, I’m debating
whether I should answer that question :)
[11:49:22] <lakitu> well the president is
co-equal, right? he can veto them & they can not
pass his, right?
[11:49:31] <lakitu> or am i ignorant
[11:49:45] <JohnGuru> look, lakitu. You say the
people have shown tood judgement in choosing
leaders, but if you’re going to have leaders, then
you’re throwing away the highly institutionalized
process by which we choose the candidates who
can become leaders
[11:49:59] <commonman> lakitu, America is a
meritocracy, personal achievments and private
protery rule
[11:50:16] <JohnGuru> let me repost that
[11:50:29] <JohnGuru> look, lakitu. You say the
people have shown good judgement in choosing
leaders, but if you’re not going to have leaders,
then you’re throwing away the highly institutiona
lized process by which we choose the candidates
who can become leaders
[11:51:27] <JohnGuru> the athenian democracy
didn’t have “offices” .. people elected to a
functional office. They had popular speakers and
occasional speakers, and anybody could propose
an action. If everybody passed it, the police
enforced it
[11:51:51] <JohnGuru> the reason why a popular
democracy is so amorphous is because it’s a
*democracy,* not a republic
[11:52:03] <JohnGuru> the people assembled can
do anything they want
[11:52:23] <lakitu> commonman: no it’s not, it’s
a representative democracy.. we do not formally
require merit. recent presidents & candidates
have frankly bellied that up – you can be stupid &
still hold office, or run for office
[11:53:18] <JohnGuru> we currently have an
elaborate mechanism set up to make sure only
people who deserve to be elected can enter the
election
[11:53:41] <JohnGuru> once the election is done,
the people are no longer consulted. All the
decision making vests in those officers .. which is
why we need the officers
[11:53:45] <commonman> Lakitu, haha, the
recent president were pupits and I think you
know it
[11:53:46] <lakitu> JohnGuru: i avoid that, hook
& sinker. only 4 branch agreed laws would
become laws, & only 4 branch agreed motions
would come to pass.. no whimsical mob
legislation
[11:54:20] <JohnGuru> lakitu, so you still have a
legislature to pass laws?
[11:54:34] <lakitu> only senate executive
judiciary AND “popular” motions would pass
[11:54:35] <lakitu> yes of course
[11:54:51] <lakitu> that is what i mean – 1/4
direct democracy: a branch of government
[11:54:56] <JohnGuru> so what makes it a
democracy?
[11:55:05] <lakitu> rule by the people, no?
[11:55:11] <JohnGuru> what rule?
[11:55:24] <lakitu> hemisemi – 1/4
[11:55:32] <JohnGuru> I don’t get it
[11:55:47] <JohnGuru> who are these “people” in
the 4th branch?
[11:55:54] <lakitu> hmm.  they would have
co-equal power, with the legislature, with the
president & with the judges. you & i
[11:56:02] <lakitu> the body-politick of america
[11:56:17] <JohnGuru> that’s what the
legislature is
[11:56:29] <lakitu> the everyman; here, no
[11:56:38] <JohnGuru> who is their spokesman?
[11:56:47] <JohnGuru> I mean, how do they
bring a proposal up?
[11:56:51] <lakitu> i have a good quote
differentiating that:
[11:56:51] <lakitu> We now have complete
suffrage on WHO can vote;
[11:56:51] <lakitu> we continue to fight for
complete suffrage on WHAT we can vote on
[11:56:55] <lakitu> “ “
[11:56:59] <lakitu> http://www.ni4d.us/en/endor
sements
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has joined #philosophical
[11:57:30] <JohnGuru> can the 4th branch
cancel laws passed by the 2nd branch?
[11:57:38] <lakitu> yes, they are co-equal.
[11:57:42] <JohnGuru> can the 2nd branch annul
laws passed by the 4th branch?
[11:57:56] <JohnGuru> what if they make
contradictory laws?
[11:57:58] <lakitu> hold on – i missed answering
something i wanted to answer of yours
[11:59:57] <lakitu> JohnGuru: well, that was a
point i & others have raised: athenian
democracy, or diluted forms of it (like i am
proposing), were practicably infeasible – not
doable; but with computers & the internet…
direct democracy or a direct democracy branch
is not infeasible, & with proper authentication
we could discuss & vote on any issue we cared
about, & got informed on.. i am not sure if we
would require tests to make sure we understood
what we
[11:59:57] <lakitu> voted on.. defrauding it.. —
there ar eholes, but
[12:00:01] <lakitu> all in all it could be good
[12:00:02] <lakitu> now
[12:00:49] <IDT> the only true democracy is one
that is without a state, without a government,
without central management
[12:01:09] <lakitu> <JohnGuru> can the 2nd
branch annul laws passed by the 4th branch?
<JohnGuru> what if they make contradictory
laws? <– all Four Branches would be Co-Equal &
themselves like a Citizenry: only unanimous
(isn’t the system now?) or perhaps…. majority
vote by the Four Branches on a law would pass
that law
[12:01:35] <lakitu> so the Branches are
themselves Giant Voters.
[12:01:58] <lakitu> isn’t [that] the system now, i
meant
[12:02:13] <lakitu> unanimous vote by the Three
Branches of government
[12:02:19] <lakitu> brb..
[12:03:52] <JohnGuru> I think it’s a prescription
for a mes
[12:03:54] <JohnGuru> mess
[12:04:59] <JohnGuru> if anybody can submit a
bill, you’ll have 10,000 bills a day for Pamela
Anderson to go on a date with Joe Somebody,
5,000 bills a day to give $1 million to Joe’s
brother Bill
[12:05:01] <lakitu> Rule Of The People By The
People For The People was Lincoln’s
admonishment in the Gettysburg Address; that
is what we have done, & this just takes it a step
further
[12:05:21] <lakitu> true problem.. hm
[12:05:39] <lakitu> we could have meta votes –
vote on which issues should be voted on
[12:05:40] <JohnGuru> 8,650 laws to punish my
neighbor for dumping leaves on my lawn
[12:06:08] <JohnGuru> lakitu, you could, but
now you’re setting up a second-level system that
duplicates what congress does
[12:06:11] <lakitu> unpopular votes would be
ignored, until or unless they broke the limit for
votability
[12:06:21] <lakitu> but of & by the people
[12:06:27] <lakitu> not the senate/congress
[12:06:53] <JohnGuru> currently, a bill has to
pass both houses of congress. If you want to
prevent chaos, a bill would have to pass all three
houses .. in effect you’re just adding another
house of congress, except that it doesn’t have a
limited number of seats
[12:07:38] <JohnGuru> when a bill passes one
house but not another, an inter-house
committee has to be set up to hammer out a
compromise bill
[12:07:56] <JohnGuru> we’d need a standing
Pamela Anderson committe
[12:08:41] <JohnGuru> lakitu, basically I’m not
opposed to making the government more
unwieldy. The harder it is to pass a law, the
better it is :)
[12:08:54] <lakitu> so if the people wanted to
vote in oh.. drive without insurance papers..
they would first propose it, vote to vote on it, &
then vote on it – if they majority voted for it,
then the congress & senate & president
branches would have to approve, just as if a
senator or congressman proposes a bill, the
senate congress & president must approve it, as i
understand it, no?
[12:09:10] <JohnGuru> but offering to allow the
president and his branch to propose laws is not a
good idea. He already has enough power
without being able to introduce legislation
[12:10:01] <JohnGuru> why not shift some of the
executive offices to the congress, and whittle
down some of the president’s authority?
[12:10:05] <lakitu> “a bill would have to pass all
three houses” that is what i am suggesting – ah,
but say any branch could vote down the actual
voting for a bill.. that would weed them out, no?
[12:10:26] <lakitu> or say, a own-house could
vote down or ignore-sufficiently voting on a bill,
& they would be weeded out
[12:10:35] <lakitu> sorry, was scrolled up
[12:11:35] <JohnGuru> basically you’re saying
congress is not responsive to the people. You
want to have the same function without having
to elect these fat asses who are pawns of big
business
[12:12:30] <lakitu> in other words, the congress
could vote down proposed votes for bills, or
ignore them sufficiently to not make them
voteable.. the populus could do that, the senate
could do that, the congress could do that, & i
guess the president even could filter out their
own bills from being voted on, by voting against
voting for them, or ignoring them sufficiently.
[12:12:31] <JohnGuru> if this is a vote of
no-confidence in the US congress, because they
dont do the job, then let’s get rid of them
[12:13:19] <lakitu> <JohnGuru> but offering to
allow the president and his branch to propose
laws is not a good idea. He already has enough
power without being able to introduce
legislation <– if this is not already done i don’t
want to do it.. i am ignorant of some of the
workings of even my own government
[12:13:36] <lakitu> <JohnGuru> why not shift
some of the executive offices to the congress,
and whittle down some of the president’s
authority? <– not opposed, but i’d have to learn
more
[12:13:47] <JohnGuru> yeah, it’s not already
done. The pres can veto a law, but he can’t
introduce one
[12:13:57] <lakitu> ok – mea culpa
[12:13:59] <lakitu> if i said that
[12:14:04] <lakitu> i probably did
[12:14:23] <lakitu> the people don’t even
understand their government..
[12:14:42] <lakitu> at lesat this person doesn’t –
=)
[12:14:45] <JohnGuru> alright, well, convene
your constitutional convention. If the people
choose to pass your revised constitution, then I’ll
accept it
[12:15:14] <lakitu> the senate & the congress, or
the populus writ large?
[12:15:41] <lakitu> i would not accept this
without congress & senate & presidential
approval, if that is the current system.. i am not
calling for revolution..
[12:15:44] <lakitu> reform.. not revolution
[12:16:10] <JohnGuru> you’re going to have a
problem with the general legislature, because
you’ll need a second layer of administration to
manage 300 million congressmen. Just trashing
the frivolous “law” proposals will take a huge
department, maybe 2500 people
[12:16:20] * snaggle ([email protected].
xo.net) Quit (Ping timeout)
[12:16:47] <JohnGuru> should we take seriously
bills that make no sense, and put them up for
general vote?
[12:16:56] <lakitu> what government branch
isn’t worth it’s own operation.. it is like saying
we shouldn’t add on a third half of our brain
because it will require food & water & nutrients..
[12:17:19] <lakitu> JohnGuru: no, we should
ignore them & thereby take away the possibility
to even vote on them
[12:17:31] <lakitu> (as a proposed way of dealing
with that – a real problem)
[12:17:44] <JohnGuru> well, basically, the more
units you add to the legislative process, the
harder you make it to make laws. That’s good, in
general terms, and exactly why the founding
fathers set up two houses instead of one
[12:17:54] <lakitu> interesting
[12:18:17] <lakitu> as an aside, voting would not
be coimpulsory but free & voluntary
[12:18:31] <JohnGuru> doesn’t matter. either
way is fine
[12:18:36] <lakitu> not be mandatory
[12:18:45] <JohnGuru> you can’t really compel
people to vote :)
[12:19:02] <JohnGuru> all you can do is try to
punish them if they don’t
[12:19:16] <JohnGuru> we already have enough
crime, I think, without adding voter crime
[12:19:30] <JohnGuru> but that’s up to you :)
[12:19:37] <waub> they could give away lollipops
at voting places
[12:19:42] <JohnGuru> lol
[12:19:43] <lakitu> so if your current
government passed this would you not oppose
it? is it somehow too dangerous etc
[12:19:46] <JohnGuru> that makes some sense
[12:20:33] * ArcheopteryX ([email protected]
.9.28) has joined #philosophical
[12:20:35] <lakitu> i mean that in a positive way:
if this passed you would not oppose it, you would
be unopposed – or is that not true & a dirty
political twisting of your words
[12:20:41] <JohnGuru> lakitu, I don’t think the
form of government is critical. What matters is
what kind of people get into it. You can take a
good democracy and do evil things, and you can
take a tyaranny and do good things
[12:21:13] <JohnGuru> people who expect the
formal structure to solve problems, are
structuralists, and making a mistake, I think
[12:21:39] <ArcheopteryX> so where does that
leave Plato?
[12:21:48] <JohnGuru> out standing in his field :)
[12:21:51] <lakitu> i think the will of the people
is generally good, & they are generally
competent, i would vote to give them suffrage to
vote on any government issue.. perhaps passing
a individual-issue competency test.. but that
might be a meritocratic mistake;
[12:22:12] <JohnGuru> ribbit, I’m basically
committed to democracy. Nobody can foresee
what’s best for the whole
[12:22:36] <ArcheopteryX> how then is it that
the good and competent people consistenetly
vote in mass murderers kleptomaniacs and other
tin pot dictators in Africa?
[12:22:45] <lakitu> they are generally good &
wise, & should rule themselves as has been
shown to work & work best of the existed forms
of government
[12:23:03] <JohnGuru> ArcheopteryX, their
societies are made of people who are inclined to
do that
[12:23:06] * ArcheopteryX does not share lakitu’s
optimism
[12:23:31] <JohnGuru> when most people are
apathetic, a democracy falls prety to abusers
[12:23:43] <JohnGuru> prey
[12:24:28] <JohnGuru> sort of ike the idea of
packing the court. If the people who have a
vested interest are the only ones standing up to
be counted, they’ll skew the whole system
[12:24:51] <JohnGuru> in a country laden with
poverty and ignorance…
[12:24:55] <JohnGuru> democracy is a disaster
[12:25:07] <ArcheopteryX> in other words,
checks to prevent such abuse must be an
integral part of a democracy
[12:25:09] <JohnGuru> go communist. Safer in
the long run
[12:25:23] <JohnGuru> if you can do it, yes
[12:25:26] <ArcheopteryX> ah, like North
Korea.  Gotcha.
[12:25:31] <JohnGuru> no, like China
[12:25:37] <lakitu> ArcheopteryX: well i don’t
know the specifics there, bu tthat raises an
interesting issue: what a government is is a
product of what it was – convert from naziism to
some other form, thru the nazis, & you’re
doomed; meritocracy would be hideous &
misshapen.. injust.. but convert from a say
american represenative democracy to another
form, thru that american government – not a
revolution or takeover – & like a flower it will
grow from on
[12:25:37] <lakitu> e healthy part into another,
likely… even meritocracy is feasible… just like
you can’t go from stealing kids candy to selling
candy fairly very easily, you can’t go from a bad
government to a good government very easily
[12:25:43] <ArcheopteryX> Did you notice that
even their soldiers are running away now?
[12:25:44] <JohnGuru> china is transforming
itself into a capitalist society because they’re
now rich enough to afford it
[12:25:55] <ArcheopteryX> China keeps picking
them up and sending them back.
[12:26:01] <ArcheopteryX> Then they’re
executed.
[12:26:02] <JohnGuru> *nods*
[12:26:34] <JohnGuru> N. Korea is the
unfortunate example of a communist country
that has got hold of a particularly bad leader.
Cuba was luckier
[12:26:52] <lakitu> JohnGuru: true, apathy is a
major issue.. maybe direct democracy & voting
power people never had before would inspire
them to be pathetic about their government, to
care
[12:27:01] <ArcheopteryX> And people have
been running away from Cuba for decades
[12:27:09] <JohnGuru> lakitu, maybe
[12:27:18] <ArcheopteryX> now how about
Chavez’s Venezuela?
[12:27:18] <lakitu> see – centralizing the power,
giving one leader so much power, is a disaster
waiting to happen.
[12:27:29] <lakitu> DECENTERALIZING the
power seems wiser
[12:27:32] <JohnGuru> ArcheopteryX, to be
rich, yes. THere are always idiots in every
society that would rather be rich than safe
[12:27:36] <ArcheopteryX> quite.  decentralisiat
ion is the way to go.
[12:27:36] <lakitu> & more safe & prudent..
[12:27:46] <ArcheopteryX> let’s go back to
athenian city states =]
[12:27:51] <JohnGuru> lol
[12:28:02] * snaggle ([email protected]) has
joined #philosophical
[12:28:02] * ArcheopteryX will side with the
Spartans
[12:28:21] <lakitu> ArcheopteryX: that is what
this hemisemi direct american democracy would
do.. decentralize power from the elected few…
at least in part
[12:28:53] <JohnGuru> none of the so-called
“rich western democracies” (rorty’s term) are
likely to change their basic structure in the
foreseeable future. Even a politically unified
europe is seeming less likely than it used to
[12:29:04] <lakitu> less risk by putting less power
in the few’s hands, & giving 1/4 of all the power
to everyone
[12:29:36] <lakitu> 1/4 of all the governance
power
[12:30:07] <lakitu> governential?
[12:30:09] <lakitu> anyway
[12:32:18] <lakitu> sort of like betting on evens,
instead of lucky 13.. less risk, less gain but less
risk… more ‘spread’: more eggs in more baskets,
rather than eggs in one basket.
[12:32:43] <JohnGuru> lakitu, the more people
you involve in the political process, the less
adventurous and risk-taking it will be
[12:32:58] <JohnGuru> committees tend to be
cautious, and the larger committees are
do-nothing groups
[12:33:33] <lakitu> more power to more people,
less ‘deranged leader’ syndromes afflicting
countries, or even just irrationality &
capriciousness..   well who’s to say the Popular
branch could not form committees
[12:33:38] <lakitu> & have some structure
[12:33:40] <lakitu> even just to inform
[12:33:43] <JohnGuru> heh, it’s amazing that the
US congress does as much as it does, and the
only reason it does, I suppose, is because mostly
what they do is to hand out money to political
sponsors
[12:33:44] <Magnus_RM2> the other day i found
a way to argue against certain atheists. I will see
if one can develope it
[12:34:13] <commonman> Moore refers to
himself as a citizen, not an activist
[12:34:13] <JohnGuru> magnus, that’s interesting
[12:34:58] <Magnus_RM2> jg, well, it is a bit
extrem argument, but in a way it fits them
because this certain brand of atheist is a bit
extreme too
[12:35:13] <JohnGuru> what brand of atheist?
[12:35:32] <Magnus_RM2> those who say that
they accept only that which they have seen
[12:36:01] <JohnGuru> lakitu, btw, one thing I’m
curious about is, the managing board of the 4th
house, how would they be selected? By vote? or
appointment
[12:36:20] <lakitu> let the capriciousness of a few
be evened out by the law of averages: smoothed
out.. like how a bad flake in a food is hardly
noticed, because there’s so many others of the
same kind doing what should be done.. the bad
one is hardly noticed, because it is outnumbered
& overpowered
[12:36:35] <JohnGuru> Magnus_RM2, that is
extreme
[12:36:40] <lakitu> JohnGuru: that’s where me &
my friends come in.. Joke
[12:36:45] <lakitu> joke
[12:36:46] <JohnGuru> lol
[12:37:05] <lakitu> that is a joke
[12:37:08] <JohnGuru> lakitu, you laugh, but it’s
important
[12:37:32] <JohnGuru> anybody who can decide
what gets voted on, controls the system
[12:38:15] <lakitu> i know – i asked this too.. If i
set up a discussion board – “i” just anybody who
did – for a government branch’s website.. How
would you moderate that?   or would we skip a
discussion forum – a VITAL part of the process,
informing, – just to avoid this problem
[12:38:35] <JohnGuru> a discussion forum would
never come to any conclusions
[12:38:47] <lakitu> no – just for this one sole
purpose: to inform
[12:38:52] <lakitu> to share & discuss
[12:39:22] <lakitu> but maybe we could
circumvent a discussion forum & let them be
laisse faire elsewhere
[12:39:24] <Magnus_RM2> jg, my argument goes
along these lines, the atheist knows he
experiences things, it is obvious to him (we
assume), he agrees, then i tell him that he can
not see my experiencing, he has no first hand
experience of my experiencing…
[12:39:25] <Magnus_RM2> so, according to his
logic, namely that he accepts only that which he
can experience, he must be a solipsist of the
kind that claims “i am alone, everyone else is just
a figment of my imagination”
[12:39:40] <lakitu> only coming to the Branch’s
voting boothsite to vote
[12:40:00] <JohnGuru> Magnus_RM2, works for
me :)
[12:40:02] <lakitu> they would have to be so
locked down, secured in terms of hacking &
identity theft & fraud
[12:40:26] <Magnus_RM2> jg, and if he objects
to such extreme conclusion, then he must also
question his conclusion that there is no god
[12:40:42] <lakitu> i would require the most
skilled hackers of my country to be on the job..
at lesat the benevolent & benign ones
[12:40:56] <lakitu> at lesat*
[12:40:57] <JohnGuru> Magnus_RM2, raw
empiricism as a philosophy is so bad nobody has
ever seriously supported it. Berkeley got close.
[12:40:58] <lakitu> at least*
[12:41:25] <lakitu> think of china hacking our
voting system
[12:41:41] <lakitu> that sets up disaster
[12:41:47] <Magnus_RM2> i liked berkeley, he
said that as soon as you start thinking, then your
understanding of reality gets blurred
[12:41:48] <lakitu> we would require some other
machine to vote, perhaps
[12:41:50] <Magnus_RM2> :)
[12:41:50] <lakitu> something more secure
[12:41:52] <Magnus_RM2> and i like that
[12:42:06] <lakitu> not a computer
[12:43:01] <JohnGuru> well, I guess I better run
[12:43:11] <lakitu> oh no..
[12:43:18] <Magnus_RM2> see you jg
[12:43:25] <JohnGuru> bye lakitu, magnus :)
[12:43:32] <lakitu> JohnGuru aren’t you gonna
save the world some more – ok later =)
[12:43:38] <JohnGuru> haha
[12:43:40] <lakitu> maybe more tomorrow
[12:43:44] <JohnGuru> it’s a bit beyond my scope
:)
[12:43:47] <JohnGuru> good
[12:43:57] * JohnGuru waves
[12:44:00] * JohnGuru ([email protected]
.undernet.org) has left #philosophical
[12:44:00] <lakitu> you are a citizen! you have
power & shoulid have more
[12:44:52] <Magnus_RM2> as soon as you start
to think, we stop the process of more and more
directly seeing reality, thus our image of reality
is at that moment frozen. The thinking process
is thereafter trying to fill in the gaps, by logic
applied to that which we had seen so far.
[12:46:05] <artalien> so reality can be “seen”
without thought
[12:46:11] <artalien> ?
[12:46:27] <lakitu> <JohnGuru> lakitu, btw, one
thing I’m curious about is, the managing board of
the 4th house, how would they be selected? By
vote? or appointment <– this is a serious issue.
does anyone know how current Houses of the
American Government are managed?
[12:46:44] <lakitu> how the management is
appointed..
[12:46:59] <waub> did you ever live in a state
where the ballot is overloaded with many
obscure propositions that somehow got put on
the ballot?
[12:47:09] <Magnus_RM2> artalien, yes, that is
what berekeley said
[12:47:13] <waub> like california?
[12:47:25] <Magnus_RM2> berkeley*
[12:47:29] <artalien> how did he justify such a
claim magnus?
[12:47:39] <Magnus_RM2> artalien, i dont
remember now
[12:48:03] <artalien> sounds foolish to me and
not likely something a man such as he would say
[12:48:04] <Magnus_RM2> the formulation i
made in that post up there is my own though
[12:48:18] <lakitu> i envisioned this: for each
issue proposed by the Populus, the Populus
themselves would vote popularly – that is, if they
exceeded a threshold – for whether the issue
would be voted on by the entire House of the
Populus at all
[12:48:37] <lakitu> so each issue proposed to be
voted on would not be voted on by all members
of the Populus
[12:48:42] <Magnus_RM2> artalien, he did say
the reality can be seen without thought
[12:48:51] <Magnus_RM2> he said that is the
way to see it
[12:49:16] <artalien> was he a romantic?
[12:49:20] <waub> I don’t think having everyone
vote on all those minor issues makes california’s
government better
[12:49:41] <Magnus_RM2> artalien, i think you
need to read about him
[12:49:49] <artalien> perhaps
[12:49:55] <lakitu> that is, “Pamela Anderson
should date Joe Somebody” issues would not
come to vote if they were not popular enough in
terms of the people voting in favor of having a
vote on them..
[12:50:03] <lakitu> unpopular issues would fall by
the wayside;
[12:51:15] <artalien> perhaps Athenian
democracy flourished because the discovered a
silver mine in the backyard
[12:51:28] <artalien> lottery winners
[12:51:31] <artalien> :)
[12:51:41] <artalien> *they
[12:52:17] * commonman (~nowayman@c-76-12
1-128-91.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) Quit (Quit)
[12:52:32] <lakitu> waub: there is a problem
with letting the government be run the by few,
& that is if the electable are a product of wealth
or fame, as with some governing officials, the
common man overpowered & unable to govern
his fellow men.. without millions of dollars to
campaign, how will you win?  that sets up
requirements for wealth to govern.. & such
things
[12:53:12] <waub> you should see how moneyed
interests somehow get enough people to sign
petitions to get such tedious, obscure and
superficially uninteresting proposalson the ballot
[12:54:02] <LionClan> as soon as you have any
new form of government in place, the bankers
set about turning it to their own interests
[12:54:07] <lakitu> altho there is angel investors,
philanthropists, we should not rely on them.. but
the main issue is the people are competent &
good to vote, they should be allowed to vote –
waub – one thing i can say: if people don’t want
to vote on proposed issues, they don’t need to ..
they can just skip obscure etc propositions
[12:55:04] <LionClan> Also, as soon as you
convince enough people that change should
happen, the bankers will step in to subvert the
process of change to their own interests
[12:55:31] <LionClan> this is the current situation
[12:55:49] <lakitu> one example of a website
that is designed to run governance in the form
we know it, is operated according to this:
http://www.vpsystems.net/RobertsRules.html
[12:55:55] <lakitu> i am not saying it is good or
we should use it
[12:56:27] <LionClan> I love robert’s; I took over
the student senate with robert’s rules
[12:56:27] <lakitu> but it is a demonstrative
example
[12:58:22] <lakitu> (maybe we could use Robert’s
Rules of Order to pass philosophy propositions in
a community wiki we build.  but that would be
another issue =)
[12:58:29] <LionClan> take the US for example,
great idea, but as soon as it started the bankers
put together a political party to advance their
interests, thus Washington’s warning about the
dangers of political parties
[13:00:44] <ArcheopteryX> artalien, that’s
pretty accurate.  Athenian silver mine:
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~loxias/silverm
ines.htm
[13:02:08] <artalien> archeopteryx “worked by
10-20,000 slaves” ah democracy
[13:02:28] <Magnus_RM2> democracy  =  power
from people
[13:02:54] <ArcheopteryX> reminds me of the
US, artalien =]
[13:03:20] <ArcheopteryX> except, they’ve kept
their slaves safely offshore in Mexico, Indonisia,
the phillipines etc
[13:03:28] <lakitu> we are not slaves – we have
freedom equal to the president, in terms of our
private life
[13:03:32] <lakitu> including where we work
[13:03:56] <artalien> I am currently trying to
read about Berkeley he seems to be saying that
all we see are shades and that therefore shades
are all that is worthy of note
[13:04:13] <artalien> further thinking past the
shades is a waste of time
[13:04:21] <lakitu> well.. that is unethical, but
difficult for us to regulate countries we have no
regulation over
[13:04:22] <ArcheopteryX> *you* might be.  But
how about the kid in Thailand paid $1 a day or
less who works 18 hours a day making sneakers
for rich americans which retail at $100 + ?
[13:04:34] <lakitu> unless we regulate imports..
[13:05:08] <lakitu> with abroad inspection; not a
bad idea, but
[13:05:12] <ArcheopteryX> the moral and
ethical thing to do is to mandate american level
minimum wage and union benefits for all in the
US supply chain, lakitu
[13:05:26] <lakitu> but we cannot regulate
another country, can we?
[13:05:40] <artalien> the power of the consumer
applies
[13:05:55] <ArcheopteryX> oh weasel words
lakitu =]  “it’s not our country….”
[13:06:04] <artalien> you want to sell us stuff do
this
[13:06:16] <lakitu> not quite =)
[13:06:39] <lakitu> artalien: that was direct
democracy in athens.. not nearly as volatile as a
quarter direct democracy
[13:06:50] <lakitu> err
[13:07:15] <artalien> people don’t know what
they want, do they?
[13:07:19] <lakitu> a direct democracy is much
more volatile than a quarter direct democracy
[13:07:53] <artalien> people want to be told
what to want
[13:07:59] <artalien> imho
[13:08:39] <lakitu> this would be less volatile, &
less likely to mandate slavery, real slavery
[13:09:02] <lakitu> besides, that would be
unconstitutional, no?
[13:09:26] <artalien> I think guru had something
when he said the majority would tend to be
conservative
[13:09:41] <lakitu> hold on
[13:11:12] <lakitu> brb
[13:12:04] <artalien> frak it let the mob decide :)
[13:12:20] <lakitu> the majority would tend to
vote for what it wanted, no?
[13:13:45] <lakitu> what better human act could
we use than the wants of the people to govern
those same people.  in general, people should
get what they want, as long as its not bad or bad
intentioned.. i would thin
[13:13:46] <lakitu> k
[13:14:29] <lakitu> & we would have THREE
BRANCHES of checks & balances, to keep the
mob from ruling – only influencing.. as i said,
they’d be one of four Giant Voters, the Populus
[13:14:42] <artalien> it matters not to Mr Roark
:)
[13:14:50] <lakitu> along with the Executive,
Judiciary, & Legislative branches
[13:15:15] * determinist ([email protected].
74) has joined #philosophical
[13:15:25] <RevBrownWrk> I think government
has plenty of branches right now
[13:16:25] <lakitu> RevBrownWrk: why should
not one be the people who ARE being governed
– they should have the most say, if it is feasible,
for they are Good & Wise, as the American
government system has proven
[13:17:16] <lakitu> or at least, a proportion of
the say in what happens to them & how they are
treated & how they must live
[13:17:20] <RevBrownWrk> lakitu, We elect the
legislative branch and the cheif executive already
[13:17:24] <lakitu> they should have direct say in
that
[13:17:41] <RevBrownWrk> I don;t think we’d
gain anything worthwhile by expanding
government
[13:17:46] <lakitu> yes, but as i quoted, we do
not have ability to vote on WHAT we want, only
WHO we want to vote on things
[13:18:34] <lakitu> i couldn’t vote against the
Iraq – The Failed – War, if i wanted to. i would
have to find someone remotely close to my
ideology, & vote for him.. his blunders i would
jus thave to accept
[13:18:34] <RevBrownWrk> We vote for who we
want based on how they say they’ll vote
[13:18:54] <RevBrownWrk> lakitu, Actually, you
could have run for office yourself
[13:18:57] <lakitu> RevBrownWrk: we’d gain
power & say over how we live our lives, that is
worthwhile
[13:19:10] <lakitu> i don’t want to – i want
everyone to hold a form of office..
[13:19:30] <RevBrownWrk> lakitu, We would
gain nothign but another bublde of red tape to
wadde through
[13:20:42] <lakitu> we can for who but not for
what we want to; that is the best phrasing i’ve
heard of the argument for it.. or that part
[13:21:34] <artalien> if the goal is to give people
what they want then voting by net is the way to
go. of course this is not the goal. just as well to
or we would have the death penalty back for a
start
[13:22:37] <artalien> how does a voter make an
“informed” choice on climate change or the
economy?
[13:22:40] <lakitu> another argument is that it is
now feasible, & a third is that We are Good &
Wise, & should be given the responsibility to rule
ourselves, in as much it is good.. a fourth is there
is a system of checks & balances that would keep
it in check not letting mob rule rule
[13:23:24] <lakitu> artalien: the same way any
congressmen or senator does – by getting
informed
[13:23:27] <lakitu> we are all people, we can all
learn
[13:23:43] <artalien> where would we find the
time lakitu or the inclination
[13:23:43] <lakitu> a senator is not a nother
species, they do not have special abilities
[13:23:51] <lakitu> another*
[13:24:05] <artalien> The great Ford likes
specialization
[13:24:17] <lakitu> a common man can get
informed too
[13:24:26] <artalien> our system needs
specialists
[13:25:17] * determinist is now known as Sengukoi
[13:25:34] <artalien> what about security issues
when it would be dangerous to inform the public?
[13:26:00] <artalien> they need the info but
giving it to them puts them at a disadvantage
[13:26:22] <artalien> shall we have an offensive,
where etc etc
[13:26:43] <lakitu> artalien: voting would be
willful & the inclination would be if we want
power, we could have it – we would just have to
be cautious – the will of the people is good
enough & their minds are smart enough, but like
any responsibliity we would have to learn how to
handle it responsibly, informedly, prudently
[13:27:05] <lakitu> abstaining where necessary
[13:27:20] <lakitu> like where we don’t know
enough & don’t HAVE to decide
[13:27:44] <artalien> we just give up power eh
[13:28:05] <lakitu> sometimes no action is
better than a wrong action..
[13:28:41] <artalien> I think we may have
different views or faith in our fellow man
[13:29:24] <artalien> this probably says a lot
about us, whether we think the mob a mob or
not
[13:29:32] <lakitu> sometimes it is best to act &
it is acceptable if you are wrong, like flirting with
a girl.. other cases, best to get the heck out of
there if you don’t know
[13:30:39] <lakitu> the will of the people is good
& their minds are sufficiently smart, america has
proved this with their democracy.. it is a success,
& it is based on power by the people & it is of
the people; Lincoln said it better
[13:30:54] <lakitu> government Of The People,
By The People, & For The People
[13:31:14] <lakitu> & that is a success.. America
is successful, in most estimates
[13:31:23] <artalien> well he didn’t miss much
using the term people
[13:31:35] <artalien> like everyone or just one
[13:31:51] <lakitu> & so Government Of The
People, By The People, & For The People works,
& we should only build on that good idea, that
we know works
[13:32:08] <artalien> government of the people
by the media, for the rich
[13:32:24] <lakitu> & give government to the
people at large: the populus; in this restricted &
limited way
[13:32:28] <lakitu> 1/4 direct democracy
[13:32:36] <RevBrownWrk> We the People
designed a government with 3 branches :)
[13:32:39] <lakitu> quarter direct democracy
[13:33:11] <RevBrownWrk> No additional
branches needed :)
[13:33:20] <artalien> has anyone noted “double
rainbow man”?
[13:33:56] <lakitu> RevBrownWrk: it is not
axiomatic that we do not benefit from further
branches of government.. & just because we did
doesn’t mean we should do it eternally.. look at
tree hangers, we dont’ hang in trees anymore
[13:34:13] <lakitu> it was done but shouldn’t be
done anymore.. we evolve our behaviors
[13:34:16] <lakitu> our culture
[13:34:47] <lakitu> & while i’m not saying at all
that every change is good, i am saying i think this
one may be
[13:34:51] <lakitu> & in fact probabgly is
[13:34:54] <lakitu> probably is*
[13:35:43] * Sengukoi ([email protected])
Quit (Ping timeout)
[13:36:39] <artalien> What is the goal of US
government?
[13:37:24] <artalien> is it not to continue
[13:37:26] <RevBrownWrk> lakitu, What would
be gained from expanding government by
another 33%?
[13:37:27] <lakitu> Goodness to the people,
their life; & security of it – i cannot summarize
any more or very well
[13:38:16] <lakitu> quality & quantity of life are
of prime concern, Goodness for the citizens..
what more there is to it, i don’t know & will
think about more..
[13:39:01] <RevBrownWrk> what, specifically,
would be the functions of the proposed 4th
branch? What would it do that the current
branches do not?
[13:39:46] <RevBrownWrk> If it’s meant to
duplicate existign functions, will the current
branches have those jobs taken away? If so, why?
If not, why not?
[13:39:52] <artalien> the welfare of the people
lakitu, freedom from want, ignorance, idleness,
squalor and  disease
[13:40:20] <artalien> beveridge had it about
right seems to me
[13:40:45] <lakitu> RevBrownWrk: power by the
people which is a motif by which we have lived
by for hundreds of years well.. it is a principle
that has only served to benefit the nations taking
it on, versus fascism or aristocracy/plutocracy,
etc
[13:41:04] <RevBrownWrk> lakitu, That doesn’t
answer any of my questions
[13:41:29] <lakitu> dictatorships fail – even a
benign dictator soon is replaced by a malignant
one, & monarchies are no system to follow, as
Bush II showed
[13:41:51] <lakitu> Rev it answers this one
<RevBrownWrk> lakitu, What would be gained
from expanding government by another 33%?
[13:42:12] * lluis_74 ([email protected]
ernet.org) Quit (Quit)
[13:42:54] <RevBrownWrk> lakitu, No it doesn’t.
We already have government of the people, by
the people and for the people. Lincoln said so
himself.
[13:43:12] * ognomet ([email protected])
Quit (Ping timeout)
[13:44:46] <lakitu> it does, i’m sorry we disagree.
& argument by authority does not make it true.
we have that, but that is different from saying a
better form of it is not possible . . .
[13:44:54] <artalien> do you really want double
rainbow man voting on climate change?
[13:45:06] <artalien> or anything?
[13:45:44] <lakitu> artalien: without knowing
double rainbow man, Yes. surely, since it is his
Life he would be getting to vote on
[13:46:02] <lakitu> & i would hope he would
want the same for me
[13:46:19] <artalien> what about all them
religious peeps, the morality would be tight
[13:46:48] <lakitu> artalien: i want so much
morality it is almost a sin =)
[13:47:03] <artalien> how many Christians in the
USA? born again? apocalypse peeps?
[13:47:16] <artalien> voting and having a real say!
[13:47:21] * artalien shivers
[13:48:06] <RevBrownWrk> The current system
is designed to help balance power between
regions and states. A driect democracy would be
a disaster for the sparsely populated midwest
[13:48:10] <artalien> lakitu you want morality,
can you explain a bit more
[13:48:12] <lakitu> you are religiousist –
discriminatory against religions… that is bad..
join a fascist party if you want barring of power
based on religion
[13:48:49] <lakitu> & meet my opposition, & the
free world’s
[13:48:56] <artalien> good advice lakitu
[13:50:20] <artalien> the free world does not
oppose fascism it wants everyone to be free
[13:50:22] <artalien> just like them
[13:50:22] <RevBrownWrk> I’m very religious
myself, but I don’t want to impose my religion on
others
[13:51:06] <artalien> talk about giving up
nationhood and you’ll be howled down
[13:51:41] <artalien> nobody wants equality
[13:51:58] <artalien> everyone wants to be a boss
[13:51:58] <lakitu> by this “a better form of
[government for the people, by the people & of
the people]” reminded to say, we could set up a
sort of mock ‘pretend’ version, a website with
it.. if it was sensible enough, we could introduce
it into government.. a mock prototype seems
wisest for such big things as government, &
should be the norm for beginning a new
approval, i would ay
[13:52:00] <lakitu> say
[13:52:15] <RevBrownWrk> balancing power
between federal, state, and local governments is
important. We don’t need to break that balance
on a whim.
[13:52:47] <artalien> lakitu our deputy PM has
such a site
[13:52:52] <artalien> let me find you the url
[13:53:01] <RevBrownWrk> Like when people
rail agains the electoral college. They have no
idea what its even for!
[13:53:15] <lakitu> RevBrownWrk: it could
worked into it like clay,, little bits & carefully.
in ‘pretend’ & trial sized experiments first
[13:53:33] <lakitu> <artalien> the free world
does not oppose fascism <– what planet did you
say you’re from?
[13:54:01] <RevBrownWrk> lakitu, But why?
What concrete benefit do you suppose woudl
insue?
[13:54:07] <artalien> lakitu: check this out this
may be what you are proposing kinda:
http://yourfreedom.hmg.gov.uk/
[13:54:22] <lakitu> =P
[13:54:44] <RevBrownWrk> lakitu, We could, in
theory, replace the current system with feats of
strength, if we worked the change slowly
enough, but there’s no reaosn to.
[13:55:06] <lakitu> RevBrownWrk: more
governance effecting what we want to be law &
way; less corruption, things like this
[13:56:07] <RevBrownWrk> lakitu, I think “more
governance” is to be avoided where possible.
“less governance” is more liberty-minded IMO
[13:56:17] <lakitu> RevBrownWrk: “gather
round the aluminum pole, it is time for feats of
strength!”
[13:56:33] <lakitu> joke.. Seinfeld joke
[13:56:34] <artalien> “And remember – we want
you to suggest ideas for removing laws and
regulations, rather than ideas for creating
them.” right fraking on
[13:56:56] <lakitu> RevBrownWrk: i did not say
more governance, i said more governance
effecting what we want to be law & way
[13:57:01] <lakitu> that is different
[13:57:39] <RevBrownWrk> lakitu, Everyone
wants more of the government doing what they
want it to do. It’s the same as any authoritarian
scheme :)
[13:58:16] <RevBrownWrk> artalien, great
quote. Who’s it from?
[13:58:45] <artalien> http://yourfreedom.hmg.go
v.uk/
[13:59:10] <lakitu> RevBrownWrk: well this is
not one person wanting it to be their way more,
it is everyone getting what everyone in majority
wants..
[13:59:39] <RevBrownWrk> lakitu, The majority
can be a tyrant as well, you know
[13:59:40] <lakitu> i need some food, etc.. maybe
another time i’ll pick this up with JohnGuru, &
waub, & all
[14:00:02] * Gaindell (lausal@pool-127-299-117-1
0.est.mrb.hi-speed-internet.us) Quit (Read error:
Connection reset by peer)
[14:00:06] <RevBrownWrk> lakitu, part of the
challenge is protecting the rights of minority
opinions
[14:00:07] * X sets mode: +l 39
[14:00:10] * ognomet ([email protected])
has joined #philosophical
[14:00:10] * artalien_ ([email protected])
has joined #philosophical
[14:00:11] <lakitu> & you too alien  rev – talk
later
[14:00:16] <RevBrownWrk> MP lakitu
[14:00:21] <artalien_> bye lakitu
End of #philosophical buffer    Tue Jul 13 14:00:46 2010

Start of #philosophical buffer: Wed Jul 14 18:03:25 2010
[05:28:30] <Rastafari> and its relative
[05:28:52] <writing> you mean time is only in my
head?
[05:29:10] <Rastafari> yes
[05:29:16] * pixie^ ([email protected]
pnet.pl) Quit (Registered)
[05:29:16] * pixie^ ([email protected]
.org) has joined #philosophical
[05:29:27] <Rastafari> pixie^:  hi
[05:29:28] <writing> ok, then ill have to sue
some people who made me believe time exists
[05:29:41] <Rastafari> writing: you better do that
[05:29:54] <writing> oh yes i will and i might get
some good money
[05:30:01] <Rastafari> You know …
[05:30:10] <Rastafari> there are ppl who live in
the past and in the future
[05:30:16] <writing> i mean, they simply wont
get away like that
[05:30:18] <Rastafari> rare ppl live in the
present 100%
[05:30:25] <Rastafari> to be bored mean that
your mind is tricking you ….
[05:30:30] <writing> i should think so, yeah
[05:30:34] <Rastafari> each second differ from
the other
[05:30:50] <Rastafari> the things are changing in
everywhere your body , the world etc , no
reason to be bored
[05:30:59] <writing> sure
[05:31:18] <writing> in this digital era of
information, there is huge diversity around to be
noticed
[05:31:31] <writing> which shouldnt allow for
boredom
[05:31:35] <Rastafari> yea
[05:31:43] <Rastafari> bored ppl = lazy ppl
[05:31:46] <Rastafari> brb walk the dog
[05:31:48] <writing> provided you dont have
something else you like/find interesting
[05:31:54] <writing> right
[05:31:55] <writing> ok
[05:32:07] <Rastafari> be back in a few mins
[05:32:10] <writing> sure
[05:32:15] <writing> take your time
[05:34:29] <writing> however, the topic question
was not asking why do people get bored, but
how come time seems to slow donw while being
bored
[06:18:11] * JohnGuru ([email protected]
.undernet.org) has joined #philosophical
[06:18:35] * snaggle ([email protected].
xo.net) has joined #philosophical
[06:35:12] <JohnGuru> r&om
[06:35:14] <S0crates> R&om Quote: “If all the
year were playing holidays; To sport would be as
tedious as to work. William Shakespeare (1564 –
1616), ‘The First Part of King Henry the IV'”
[06:36:01] * JohnGuru is now known as
ClockwrkMonk
[06:36:18] * X sets mode: +o ClockwrkMonk
[06:36:42] * ClockwrkMonk changes topic to
‘Scientist solves chicken-and-egg riddle:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38238685/ns/tech
nology_and_science-science/’
[06:37:17] * X sets mode: -o ClockwrkMonk
[06:37:18] * S0crates sets mode: +o ClockwrkMo
nk
[06:37:30] * ClockwrkMonk sets mode: -o
ClockwrkMonk
[06:37:41] * ClockwrkMonk is now known as
JohnGuru
[06:40:04] * oitnelis ([email protected]
ernet.org) has joined #philosophical
[06:40:30] * X sets mode: +l 35
[06:50:35] * snaggle ([email protected].
xo.net) Quit (Ping timeout)
[06:56:16] <JohnGuru> r&om
[06:56:17] <S0crates> R&om Quote: Patience is
the companion of wisdom. Saint Augustine (354
AD – 430 AD)
[07:01:27] <IDT> how are ya JohnGuru
[07:01:38] <JohnGuru> hi IDT
[07:01:43] <IDT> hey I found my keys :)
[07:01:51] <Rastafari> writing: Im back
[07:01:51] <IDT> they were in my other jeans
[07:01:52] <JohnGuru> that’s good, where did
you find them?
[07:01:56] <JohnGuru> haha
[07:01:59] <Rastafari> walked the dog and had
some weed
[07:02:13] <JohnGuru> you think that’s bad, one
time I found my keys – after hours of looking – in
my other pocket
[07:02:24] <IDT> heh yeah thats classic
[07:02:42] <JohnGuru> humans are truly amazing
[07:02:57] <IDT> and so are jeans
[07:03:02] <JohnGuru> Rastafari, how are you
today?
[07:03:09] <Rastafari> Im high again
[07:03:16] * JohnGuru shrugs
[07:03:17] <Rastafari> listening to some reggae
on my celphone
[07:03:27] <Rastafari> later , physical exercises
[07:03:37] <Rastafari> and than some reading
[07:03:40] <JohnGuru> sorry IDT
[07:03:49] <IDT> what for?
[07:03:53] <Rastafari> got unemployed yesterday
[07:03:56] <JohnGuru> for not kicking Rastafari
[07:04:09] <JohnGuru> maybe froggy will come
in  later
[07:04:20] <Rastafari> JohnGuru gimme a
blowjob
[07:04:23] <IDT> heh
[07:04:35] <JohnGuru> I just don’t feel like
administrivia atm
[07:04:47] <JohnGuru> so
[07:04:53] <IDT> yeah
[07:05:04] <IDT> so anyway
[07:05:05] <JohnGuru> what do you think, IDT
[07:05:08] <IDT> jeans
[07:05:15] <JohnGuru> jeans are not amazing
[07:05:26] <IDT> they are very popular, how
come?
[07:05:54] <JohnGuru> that’s a hard question to
answer
[07:06:17] <JohnGuru> what we need is an
anthropologist
[07:06:20] <IDT> hehe
[07:06:23] <IDT> yeah
[07:06:26] <JohnGuru> why do people do what
they do
[07:06:35] <IDT> and mythologist
[07:06:50] <JohnGuru> well, in this case, I don’t
think it’s a myth that wearing jeans is popular
[07:07:18] <IDT> no, but making jeans popular
through mythical characters maybe
[07:07:32] <IDT> movie stars
[07:07:41] <JohnGuru> I suppose, people are
making a “statement.” The current believe is
that consumers are making statements with
their products, and we wouldn’t want to
discredit that belief, would we
[07:07:54] <IDT> a statement ?
[07:08:03] <JohnGuru> a statement, yes. About
who they are :)
[07:08:08] <IDT> oh
[07:08:16] <JohnGuru> what “kind” of person
they are
[07:08:18] <IDT> I thought you meant like baggy
pants or something
[07:08:30] <IDT> or maybe bandolas
[07:08:35] <IDT> or whatever thats called
[07:08:55] <IDT> wrong, bandana!
[07:08:58] <IDT> hehe
[07:09:12] <IDT> googled bandola, did you know
that its a guitar like instrument?
[07:09:27] <JohnGuru> the way I see it, wearing
jeans is the same thing as calling everybody by
their first name
[07:09:39] <IDT> yeah
[07:09:41] <IDT> youre right
[07:09:49] <IDT> same thing with t-shirts
[07:09:58] <JohnGuru> same thing with t-shirts
[07:10:04] <JohnGuru> it’s an equalizing move
[07:10:44] <IDT> yeah
[07:10:55] <IDT> were all the same
[07:11:24] <JohnGuru> and it’s like bragging.
People wear jeans in inappropriate contexts
because they think they’re above criticism
[07:11:32] <IDT> there was a history program
on TV here talking about when the authorities
became “Hi” with the people…
[07:11:44] <IDT> No more Sirs or Maams
[07:11:48] <JohnGuru> like people too big for
their britches, they display their privilege by
flaunting their power to ignore rules
[07:12:08] <JohnGuru> oh, yeah
[07:12:09] <IDT> Just “Hello, this is from the
insurance company”
[07:12:16] <JohnGuru> yes
[07:14:06] <IDT> The idea is I suppose the
marketing of services in a democratic world of
equals
[07:14:40] <JohnGuru> yes, but the interesting
question is, why do people want to do this?
[07:15:13] <IDT> they dont see their own wrong
in doing it
[07:15:25] <JohnGuru> it’s not as if people don’t
want status and power. They still compete to
get money, run over each other in the
workplace,
[07:15:51] <JohnGuru> why eliminate social
barriers when your basic agenda is to climb the
ladder of success?
[07:15:59] <IDT> yeah but I dont think people
like to live that way… its not good taste
[07:16:22] <IDT> the whole rat race is also a
suspicios kind of structure
[07:17:01] <IDT> I mean flaunting your riches,
its bad taste
[07:17:10] <IDT> or mocking your inferiors
[07:17:16] <JohnGuru> it is?
[07:17:41] <JohnGuru> so, the idea is, to struggle
for riches, power, status, and success, but to
pretend it doesn’t matter?
[07:18:03] <JohnGuru> are you saying people
today are HYPOCRITS?
[07:18:03] <IDT> sure. you dont have to sacrifice
anything to mock someone that is inferior to
you, you cant show your bravery but only appear
like a coward or sadist
[07:18:48] <IDT> hehe we have always been
hypocrites :) at last as long as we have had
written laws
[07:18:56] <writing> hi folks and john
[07:19:06] <writing> good to find you back
[07:19:12] <JohnGuru> hi writing :)
[07:19:15] <writing> unfortunately gotta leave
for lunch
[07:19:20] <writing> but see you soon back
[07:19:46] * writing ([email protected]) Quit
(Quit)
[07:21:29] <IDT> laws are in essence the
definition of pretending to be gods… writing
laws, thats something only the gods do
[07:21:50] <IDT> only those with special insight
into how the world should operate
[07:22:07] <JohnGuru> you think so?
[07:22:14] <JohnGuru> I never thought of laws
that way
[07:22:58] <IDT> I believe that its that way…
ancient people seems to have thought that gods
were operating this world and they thought they
were gonna get into the same trade
[07:23:25] <IDT> now were gonna operate the
world through our laws, just like the gods
[07:23:44] <JohnGuru> well
[07:23:53] <JohnGuru> ancient people
[07:24:24] <IDT> Sumerians I believe
[07:24:34] <IDT> Then Egyptians and Babylonians
[07:24:50] <IDT> Then the Romans
[07:25:24] <JohnGuru> the kings told their
people they were gods
[07:25:44] <IDT> gods or in the search for the
gods immortality
[07:25:53] * ahabthewhalr (~awesome@203-219-
251-219.static.tpgi.com.au) has joined
#philosophical
[07:25:56] <IDT> have you read Gilgamesh?
[07:26:01] <JohnGuru> evening ahabthewhalr :)
[07:26:05] <JohnGuru> no, I haven’t read
gilgamesh
[07:26:22] <ahabthewhalr> hey guru. i am just
trying to evaluate the damage from my last time
online
[07:26:27] <Rastafari> JohnGuru:  had u read
Binbadesh ?
[07:26:33] <JohnGuru> no, Rastafari
[07:26:38] <JohnGuru> I had not
[07:26:41] <IDT> well… in that story Gilgamesh
was a Sumerian King who went to search for the
life elixir plant that could give him eternal life
[07:27:31] <ahabthewhalr> google doesnt even
know Binbadesh. id say thats a sign of trouble
[07:27:52] <JohnGuru> no, it’s a sign of Rastafari
[07:27:54] <ahabthewhalr> however it does offer
Bin Bash
[07:28:21] <Rastafari> the ancient knowledge of
Binbadesh
[07:28:26] <ahabthewhalr> we buried ours, and
the turks buried theirs, and it started all over
again
[07:28:38] <ahabthewhalr> rastafari, is this a
personal knowledge
[07:28:44] <ahabthewhalr> or is it by any chance
documented
[07:28:51] <Rastafari> well documented
[07:28:55] <ahabthewhalr> mm
[07:28:58] <ahabthewhalr> not on google though
[07:29:00] <IDT> what is Binbadesh?
[07:29:01] <Rastafari> wordly known
[07:29:12] <IDT> Gilgamesh in other letters?
[07:29:25] <Rastafari> Not gilgamesh
[07:29:37] <ahabthewhalr> gilgamesh is a
respected line of thought though
[07:29:54] <IDT> its a good story at least
[07:30:45] <IDT> I found someone reading it on
the youtube… it was nice to hear it read out loud
[07:30:46] <Rastafari> its an archetype of a
ancient  scroll a very expensive source of
knowledge
[07:30:49] <ahabthewhalr> well when i was
younger i was introduced to the are of gilgamesh
by an old indian mystic who had happened to be
relocated to australia. he taught me many
things, one of which was the art of killing a
hamster purely through thought
[07:31:03] <ahabthewhalr> art not are
[07:31:05] <IDT> heh
[07:31:40] <IDT> poor hamster tho
[07:31:46] <IDT> you shouldnt take advantage of
animals
[07:31:56] <ahabthewhalr> i must say i abused
this new found knowledge. if you follow me
through life, my many travels, there is an entire
line of dead hamsters
[07:33:54] <IDT> you still there JohnGuru?
[07:34:02] <JohnGuru> I think so, IDT
[07:34:06] <ahabthewhalr> i remember
travelling through ganrua, a long lost island. i left
a sway of dead giant hamsters in my wake
[07:34:12] <ahabthewhalr> guru was with me on
that journey
[07:34:14] <JohnGuru> I’ve been trying to watch
something in another window, but
[07:34:22] <IDT> JohnGuru, ah
[07:34:37] <Rastafari> Had you read the Angrilla
IDT
[07:34:38] <Rastafari> ?
[07:35:00] <IDT> the what!?
[07:35:18] <Rastafari> the angrilla
[07:35:28] <IDT> wich means?
[07:35:35] <Rastafari> Average Life Expectancy
Compared to the General Public
[07:35:38] <Rastafari> LOL
[07:35:39] <Rastafari> x=
[07:36:45] <IDT> oh… well no I havent
[07:36:46] * artalien (~chatzilla@host86-141-26-
134.range86-141.btcentralplus.com) has joined
#philosophical
[07:37:00] <IDT> why do you ask?
[07:37:29] <Rastafari> I was very curious
[07:37:59] <IDT> because?
[07:38:16] <Rastafari> I taught you care for
statistics
[07:38:29] <IDT> are you interested in it?
[07:38:34] <Rastafari> yes
[07:39:36] <JohnGuru> hi artalien
[07:39:46] <IDT> curious thing to be interested
in… do you have any particular reason to be
interested?
[07:39:54] <artalien> hi johnguru how are you
today?
[07:40:25] <JohnGuru> i’m good. You?
[07:40:26] <Rastafari> IDT: random knowledge
[07:40:39] <artalien> good also :)
[07:40:51] <IDT> Rastafari, what have you found
?
[07:41:04] <Rastafari> Lots of numbers
[07:42:11] <IDT> are you calculating your own
life expectancy ?
[07:43:14] * Broadus ([email protected]
ndernet.org) has joined #philosophical
[07:48:43] <JohnGuru> I can do that
[07:49:26] * Magnus_RM ([email protected].
87.static.has.siw.siwnet.net) has joined
#philosophical
[07:49:32] <artalien> Can anyone tell me the
name of the philosopher in Plato’s works (I
think) who bought up all the grinding stones to
prove he could make money?
[07:50:09] <JohnGuru> no, I don’t even
remember him
[07:50:17] <Magnus_RM> that was me
[07:50:32] <JohnGuru> ah hah, you lothario you
[07:51:11] <Magnus_RM> well, do you want to
buy a grinding stone, special price only for you.
[07:51:31] <JohnGuru> of course I do! Do you
think I want to live my life without a grinding
stone?!?!?!
[07:51:41] <JohnGuru> oy veh!
[07:51:50] <artalien> hm my memory sucks
[07:51:53] * Magnus_RM hands one over
[07:52:00] <Magnus_RM> 1000 bucks please
[07:52:04] <Magnus_RM> :)
[07:52:14] * JohnGuru passes Magnus_RM slips of
paper containing promises that they can be
traded for something valuable
[07:52:24] <Magnus_RM> hehe
[07:52:42] <Magnus_RM> i have a funny idea
[07:52:50] <JohnGuru> I believe it. You always do
[07:52:56] <JohnGuru> j/k
[07:53:01] <Magnus_RM> this one is about
steganography
[07:53:08] <JohnGuru> what?
[07:53:11] <JohnGuru> writing with tea stains?
[07:53:32] <Magnus_RM> steganography is to
hide a message inside another information
[07:54:01] <Magnus_RM> for example writing a
letter so that the first letter in each word, when
taken together, forms a new hidden message
[07:54:15] <JohnGuru> oh god
[07:54:58] <JohnGuru> I mean, okay
[07:56:19] <Magnus_RM> you own unified
artificial riches. either a financial oracle or lazy.
[07:56:27] <Magnus_RM> what does that
become?
[07:56:29] <Magnus_RM> :)
[07:56:45] <JohnGuru> I assume that’s a
stegograph
[07:57:10] <Magnus_RM> that hides a
steganographic message according to the idea i
mentioned above
[07:57:27] <JohnGuru> (y)ou (o)wn (u)nified (a)r
… etc. “You are a fool” is what the first letter of
each word spells out
[07:57:33] <Magnus_RM> hehe
[07:57:36] <Magnus_RM> correct!
[07:57:45] <JohnGuru> I want my crown!
[07:57:54] * Magnus_RM puts a crown on jg
[07:58:00] * JohnGuru beams like an idiot
[07:58:26] <JohnGuru> <Magnus_RM> i have a
funny idea
[07:58:30] <JohnGuru> was that your funny idea?
[07:59:21] <Magnus_RM> my idea is to make a
software, which in some way helps you to write
your irc posts as you intend but which at the
same time changes the wording so that your
hidden message comes across too
[07:59:29] <IDT> Rastafari, so what is your
interest in statistics?
[07:59:49] <Rastafari> pure THC
[07:59:58] <JohnGuru> Magnus, that’s what
sarcasm is. You don’t need a special tool for it
[08:00:07] <Magnus_RM> hehe, right
[08:00:51] <ahabthewhalr> well you do
[08:00:56] <ahabthewhalr> only a special tool
uses sarcasm
[08:01:00] <JohnGuru> I’ve heard they get testy
in #philosophy about sarcasm. It’s because they
open up the secret message and, lo and behold,
it’s not friendly!
[08:01:12] <Magnus_RM> jg, anyway i would like
to make such a software, so you give a hidden
message, then you write your posts as you like
while chatting with others in the channel, and
then after a while your entire hidden message
has been relayed
[08:01:34] <Magnus_RM> and then afterwards
you can give everyone the key
[08:01:35] <JohnGuru> I’m not going to fund
your project, Magnus_RM
[08:01:42] <JohnGuru> try the DoD
[08:01:49] <ahabthewhalr> magnus i think you
are simply referring to language. some people
will understand the “secret” message and some
people wont. its also known as life
[08:01:51] <Magnus_RM> what is DoD
[08:02:00] <JohnGuru> US Department of
Defense
[08:02:23] <JohnGuru> you know, Pentagon. The
world’s largest single aggregation of assholes, all
in one place
[08:02:39] <Magnus_RM> ahabthewhalr, well,
steganography is naturally inherrent in a lot of
our behaviour in life, as jg pointed out, sarcasm,
for example.
[08:03:03] <Magnus_RM> but it is a science too
[08:03:24] <Magnus_RM> or a technique
[08:04:04] <JohnGuru> body language, another
example
[08:04:07] <Magnus_RM> yes
[08:04:43] <Magnus_RM> if you transmit
pictures, then you can hide lots of text inside
them, without making any noticable changes to
them
[08:05:18] <Magnus_RM> every pixle in an image
can contain one extra bit of information for text,
at least
[08:05:25] <Magnus_RM> pixel*
[08:08:44] <IDT> Im off, cya later
[08:08:48] <JohnGuru> bye IDT
[08:08:53] <IDT> bye
[08:08:54] * IDT ([email protected]
1.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) has left #philosophic
al
[08:08:59] <JohnGuru> dont’ take any wooden
coins
[08:09:15] <JohnGuru> Magnus, you sure know
how to drive them away, dontcha
[08:09:33] <JohnGuru> j/k :)
[08:09:44] <Magnus_RM> jg, well, he gave a very
funny hidden message in that last post
[08:09:50] <JohnGuru> he did?
[08:10:00] <JohnGuru> this one? <IDT> Im off,
cya later
[08:10:01] <artalien> It was olive presses not
grinding stones and the man was Thales
[08:10:01] <Magnus_RM> yes, but it was
intended for me only
[08:10:04] <Magnus_RM> yes that one
[08:10:05] <artalien> :)
[08:10:20] <JohnGuru> looks innocent enough to
me
[08:10:59] <Magnus_RM> the hidden message
was “jg thinks that I leave because of
Magnus_RM, but little does he know, hehe”
[08:11:18] <JohnGuru> oh, that hidden message
:)
[08:14:26] <Magnus_RM> one simple way to
make a program like this would be to change 1
space to 2 spaces at say in average at two places
in each post you make
[08:14:52] <Magnus_RM> one  simple way to
make a program  like this would be to change 1
space to 2 spaces at say in average at two places
in each post you make
[08:15:00] <Magnus_RM> like that for example
[08:15:40] <JohnGuru> *nods*
[08:16:12] <JohnGuru>            sometimes I put
extra spaces at the beginning of my posts. I’m
not sure anybody ever knows why I do that
[08:16:14] <RevBrownAFK> MM all
[08:16:19] * RevBrownAFK is now known as
RevBrownWrk
[08:16:23] <Magnus_RM> jg, aha
[08:16:25] <JohnGuru> morning RevBrown
[08:16:45] <JohnGuru> I do it in order to signify
an afterthought :)
[08:16:55] <JohnGuru>                  not that
there’s any good reason to do so
[08:17:00] <Magnus_RM> in this way you could
store perhaps 2 extra letters in each post
[08:17:06] <JohnGuru> *nods*
[08:17:10] <JohnGuru> I’m sure
[08:17:33] <RevBrownWrk> Hiya JohnGuru
[08:18:27] <Magnus_RM> so from all the posts i
made in here today one could get a message
with say 60-70 letters, already
[08:18:46] <Magnus_RM> which is like one extra
post :)
[08:19:02] <Magnus_RM> with some nasty
message :)
[08:19:26] <JohnGuru> it would be easier to just
post the nasty message and then sweet-talk the
ops before they get you :)
[08:19:40] * jimmyjj (~jimmyj@CPE-203-51-161-
223.lns11.lon.bigpond.net.au) has joined
#philosophical
[08:19:42] <Magnus_RM> hehe, yeah that’s
another way
[08:19:43] <JohnGuru> I mean, froggy and me
are pushovers
[08:19:54] <JohnGuru> catnips, that’s another
story
[08:20:00] <JohnGuru> hey jimmyjj
[08:20:04] <jimmyjj> hi john
[08:20:55] <JohnGuru> I’ve been avoiding science
topics until you got here, jimmy
[08:21:05] <JohnGuru> so you wouldn’t miss
anything
[08:21:10] <jimmyjj> and now you have one?
[08:21:26] <JohnGuru> no, but that doesn’t
mean I haven’t been avoiding them :)
[08:21:30] <jimmyjj> ha
[08:21:49] <JohnGuru> oh
[08:21:51] <JohnGuru> right
[08:22:05] <JohnGuru> I was trying to remember
.. I knew I was pissed off about something
science-related, but forgot what it was
[08:22:09] <JohnGuru> but there it is, in the
topic bar
[08:22:28] <JohnGuru> Scientist solves
chicken-and-egg riddle: http://www.msnbc.msn.
com/id/38238685/ns/technology_and_science-sci
ence/
[08:22:31] <jimmyjj> youre pissed off at chickens?
[08:22:45] <JohnGuru> no, at scientists who
think they can solve it
[08:22:50] * Eve` ([email protected]) Quit
(Registered)
[08:22:50] * Eve` ([email protected])
has joined #philosophical
[08:23:08] <JohnGuru> they all think of the
world as a personal little puzzle, don’t they
[08:23:20] <jimmyjj> the chicken came first by
immaculate conception
[08:23:26] <JohnGuru> fine
[08:23:41] <JohnGuru> see, up until this brit
scientist jumped into the fray, you’d be entitled
to whatever answer you wanted to make
[08:23:44] <JohnGuru> but NOT NOW
[08:24:10] <JohnGuru> now he has proposed an
authoritative answer that marginalizes anything
anyone else wants to say
[08:24:16] <JohnGuru> prick
[08:24:50] <jimmyjj> i hate when science reduces
your ability to believe anything
[08:25:13] <JohnGuru> you do, huh
[08:25:23] <JohnGuru> Magnus_RM, that’s an
example of sarcasm :)
[08:25:40] <jimmyjj> like i’m ever sarcastic
[08:25:45] <JohnGuru> we were talking about
steganotes earlier, jimmy
[08:25:52] <jimmyjj> the dinosaur?
[08:26:27] <JohnGuru> <Magnus_RM> this one
is about steganography
[08:26:27] <JohnGuru> <JohnGuru> what?
[08:26:27] <JohnGuru> <JohnGuru> writing
with tea stains?
[08:26:27] <JohnGuru> <Magnus_RM>
steganography is to hide a message inside
another information
[08:26:45] <JohnGuru> I had never heard of it
before
[08:26:51] <JohnGuru> but then I suggested
sarcasm is the same thing
[08:27:00] <jimmyjj> interesting
[08:27:22] <jimmyjj> so you thought i was saying
this when i was really saying this
[08:27:27] <JohnGuru> and I think everybody has
the ability to be sarcastic occasionally, jimmy,
even you
[08:27:35] <JohnGuru> yes :)
[08:28:39] <Magnus_RM> i am never sarcastic,
never
[08:28:45] <JohnGuru> tsk
[08:28:48] <Magnus_RM> :)
[08:28:54] <jimmyjj> sure youre not
[08:28:58] <JohnGuru> surely you can see how it
would increase the range of your communicatio
ns :)
[08:29:26] <jimmyjj> upsets the correspondence
theory of truth a little
[08:29:34] <JohnGuru> yeah
[08:29:52] <JohnGuru> but only those kinds of
people as try to solve chicken and egg riddles
would worry about the correspondence theory
of truth
[08:30:06] <jimmyjj> heh
[08:30:20] * pavlicek (~asdf@adsl-76-250-252-88.
dsl.tpkaks.sbcglobal.net) has joined #philosophical
[08:30:47] * X sets mode: +l 38
[08:30:50] <jimmyjj> ive been reading rortys
mirror of nature again to try and understand it
this time
[08:31:10] <jimmyjj> have you read it john?
[08:31:18] <JohnGuru> no
[08:31:23] <JohnGuru> I’m afraid not, jimmy
[08:31:31] <jimmyjj> its interesting
[08:31:37] <JohnGuru> I haven’t read much of
Rorty, mainly because I haven’t had much money
for buying books
[08:31:43] <jimmyjj> ah i see
[08:31:56] <jimmyjj> books are expensive
[08:31:57] <JohnGuru> but that’s going to
change soon :)
[08:32:00] <JohnGuru> yeah, they are
[08:32:18] <jimmyjj> you bought a lottery ticket?
[08:32:19] <JohnGuru> especially books with
limited audience, like philo & science
[08:32:40] <jimmyjj> or with some scholastic
support
[08:32:45] <JohnGuru> no, I’ve just reached the
age where I qualify for government pension,
which we call “social security” benefits
[08:32:51] <jimmyjj> ah
[08:33:01] <jimmyjj> well dont waste it all on
lottery tickets :)
[08:33:06] <JohnGuru> lol
[08:33:10] <JohnGuru> I never buy lottery
tickets :)
[08:34:06] <ahabthewhalr> the lottery is a tax
on the hopeful
[08:34:10] <ahabthewhalr> nasty thing
[08:34:38] <jimmyjj> whereas insurance is a tax
on the pessimistic?
[08:35:06] <ahabthewhalr> insurance is just one
of those things son
[08:35:12] <jimmyjj> heh ok
[08:35:58] <JohnGuru> sometimes buying
insurance is mandated by law
[08:36:00] <ahabthewhalr> see i could have said
stupid. but i dont like that. my parents buy
lottery tickets and so do good friends. its more
just a hope than any stupidity
[08:36:02] <JohnGuru> doesn’t sound very fair,
does it
[08:36:15] <ahabthewhalr> well its fair when it
affects others guru
[08:36:39] <JohnGuru> everything affects others,
ahab, that doesn’t give the government the right
to regulate everything
[08:36:59] <ahabthewhalr> the government. we
the people
[08:37:05] <JohnGuru> no
[08:37:07] <ahabthewhalr> the government are
simply representing the people
[08:37:16] <JohnGuru> just because it’s the
people doesn’t mean they can walk on peoples’
rights
[08:37:23] <ahabthewhalr> walk on people rights
[08:37:31] <ahabthewhalr> you mean a persons
right not to help out another person?
[08:37:46] <JohnGuru> “the needs of the many
outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.”
heard that?
[08:37:50] <ahabthewhalr> yup
[08:37:58] <JohnGuru> it’s wrong
[08:38:09] <ahabthewhalr> so tell me how that
applies to paying a bit so people can get by who
are in trouble
[08:38:14] <ahabthewhalr> well fill me in guru
[08:38:21] <ahabthewhalr> how do you feel hurt
by helping people
[08:38:25] <ahabthewhalr> forced or otherwise
[08:38:43] <JohnGuru> sorry, ahab, I don’t know
what you’re talking about. We were talking
about forcing people to buy insurance
[08:38:49] <ahabthewhalr> yes
[08:39:14] <ahabthewhalr> i am saying, for
example, third person insurance. so if you crash
you at least have the money to pay for the
damages
[08:39:19] <ahabthewhalr> do you have a
concern with that
[08:39:55] <ahabthewhalr> then i was willing to
be more broad about the idea, but apparently
you were not. my lovely little johnguru teddybear
[08:41:17] <JohnGuru> :)
[08:41:29] <JohnGuru> ahab, if you like the
situation as it is, far be it from me.
[08:41:57] <ahabthewhalr> well
[08:42:09] <ahabthewhalr> lets just rent a room
and snuggle for the night guru
[08:44:03] <JohnGuru> okay
[08:44:14] <ahabthewhalr> okay
[08:44:16] <JohnGuru> nevermind about the
insurance
[08:44:22] <ahabthewhalr> well
[08:44:29] <ahabthewhalr>  you should buy dead
hooker insuranc4
[08:44:35] <ahabthewhalr> insurance
[08:44:43] <JohnGuru> why don’t you go spend
some money on building a particle accelerator.
We’d all appreciate it.
[08:44:52] <JohnGuru> p.s., don’t be cheap
[08:45:42] <ahabthewhalr> guru dont test me
[08:45:59] * jimmyjj (~jimmyj@CPE-203-51-161-
223.lns11.lon.bigpond.net.au) Quit (Quit)
[08:46:23] <ahabthewhalr> i think you at least
have a vague idea of my genius
[08:46:30] <JohnGuru> well, haha, the truth is,
some governments force their people to buy
particle accelerators
[08:46:47] <ahabthewhalr> damn those third
world countries and their particle accelerators
[08:47:06] <ahabthewhalr> its all child soldiers
and particle acceleration
[08:47:10] <ahabthewhalr> it disgusts me
[08:48:47] <JohnGuru> yes, life is disgusting
when you find out what you have to do
[08:48:56] <ahabthewhalr> mm
[08:49:18] <ahabthewhalr> guru i am still not
sure i approve of you
[08:50:28] <JohnGuru> well so?
[08:50:52] <ahabthewhalr> well so indeed good
sir
[08:50:53] <JohnGuru> I mean, what kind of
consequences are we talking about, here
[08:50:58] <ahabthewhalr> not many
[08:51:15] <ahabthewhalr> just my respect.
which means roughly zero
[08:51:20] <JohnGuru> the truth is, I wasn’t
trying to be approved of
[08:51:38] <JohnGuru> is that bad?
[08:51:39] <ahabthewhalr> irc wise its the equal
of being an op in #ahabsplace
[08:51:44] <ahabthewhalr> no
[08:51:53] <ahabthewhalr> but you should
probably be approved of, trying or not
[08:52:01] <ahabthewhalr> if you werent so
dodgy
[08:55:38] <JohnGuru> r&om
[08:55:39] <S0crates> R&om Quote: “If we value
the pursuit of knowledge, we must be free to
follow wherever that search may lead us. The
free mind is not a barking dog, to be tethered on
a ten-foot chain. Adlai E. Stevenson Jr. (1900 –
1965), speech at the University of Wisconsin,
Madison, October 8, 1952″
[08:57:48] <JohnGuru> apparently it leads to the
grave
[08:58:23] <Magnus_RM> it leads to the grave
mind
[08:58:37] <JohnGuru> how come there are no
pithy quotes about the pursuit of faith?
[08:59:31] <RevBrownWrk> JohnGuru, there
probably are.
[09:00:02] <JohnGuru> oh
[09:00:13] <JohnGuru> I guess so. We’re just not
going to find them here :)
[09:00:21] <JohnGuru> all we get is crap about
knowledge
[09:00:33] <Magnus_RM> there are two kinds of
faith, that which is based on at least some
relevant knowledge, and the rest
[09:01:50] <JohnGuru> well, I won’t belabor the
point. The basic problem is that faith leads into
doubt; knowledge leads into certainty; and given
those two choices, rational people will choose
the certainty, so they can stand up in lecture
halls and show how smart they are
[09:02:07] * Ragtime^ (Ragtime_@ip72-223-7-41
.ph.ph.cox.net) has joined #philosophical
[09:02:27] <JohnGuru> morning Ragtime^
[09:02:49] <RevBrownWrk> Certainity is
overrated. I am skeptical about people who rely
on it.
[09:02:55] <JohnGuru> me too
[09:03:03] <Ragtime^> good morning sir
[09:03:20] <Ragtime^> Good!  RevBrown is
here!  Now I can get in some sparring practice.
[09:03:23] <JohnGuru> the more doubt and
uncertainty a person can tolerate, the greater
they are, until finally you end at the Socratic
point, where you know nothing at all
[09:04:05] <Magnus_RM> jg, not so sure about
that, not sure at all
[09:04:13] <Magnus_RM> :)
[09:04:24] <Ragtime^> So Sgt. Schultz was a
socratic philosopher!  Who woulda thunk it?
[09:04:29] <RevBrownWrk> Ragtime^, It’s not
“sparring”. I just make fun of you.
[09:04:51] <Ragtime^> RevBrownWrk:  Maybe
you should do another boycott, just to make fun
of me.
[09:05:26] <RevBrownWrk> Ragtime^, You
keep throwing that word wround, but I don;t
think you really understand it.
[09:06:03] <RevBrownWrk> Ragtime^, But that
just means that you have as much trouble with
vocabulary as you do with science or politics, I
suppose :)
[09:06:07] * annely ([email protected]
ndernet.org) Quit (Quit: —  )
[09:12:45] * snaggle ([email protected].
xo.net) has joined #philosophical
[09:13:10] * JohnGuru is now known as JohnG-brb
[09:14:40] <RevBrownWrk> MM snaggle
[09:16:08] <artalien> “The scientists found that a
protein found only in a chicken’s ovaries is
necessary for the formation of the egg,
according to the paper Wednesday. The egg can
therefore only exist if it has been created inside
a chicken”
[09:16:09] <artalien> They are using a chicken
and egg from today to make assumptions about
earlier forms. Evolution is not static is it?
[09:16:53] <RevBrownWrk> Only a chicken ca
lay a chicken egg. That makes sense. Chickens
were not the first creatures to lay eggs, though.
[09:17:24] <artalien> why is it that most sci-fi
includes a human race which has not evolved?
[09:17:50] <RevBrownWrk> artalien, I think the
assumption is that we’ve put the kibosh on
human evolution
[09:18:04] <artalien> but we are a part of nature
[09:18:15] <artalien> we are a part of evoltuion
[09:18:43] <artalien> I am at a loss to make
sense of this separation of man from the universe
[09:19:22] * JohnG-brb is now known as JohnGuru
[09:19:26] <artalien> nature and artificial
[09:19:33] <RevBrownWrk> MMA JohnGuru :)
[09:19:38] <artalien> *natural
[09:19:47] <JohnGuru> ty RevBrownWrk :)
[09:21:57] <JohnGuru> artalien, the separation is
real
[09:22:08] <artalien> as if something of the
universe can be artificial, anything made by man
is but a manipulation
[09:22:20] <artalien> how do you see this
johnguru?
[09:22:30] <RevBrownWrk> Well, that’s what
“artificial” means.
[09:22:37] <JohnGuru> man’s physical nature is
part of the natural world, a product of evolution
[09:22:47] <JohnGuru> but his intellectual
developments are not.
[09:22:53] <RevBrownWrk> It’s just a word that
means “the product of artifice”
[09:23:59] <artalien> mind steps outside of the
process, rather than is a product of
[09:24:02] <JohnGuru> rocks don’t have
intellectual products; plants don’t have
intellectual products. Creativity doesn’t come
from thunderstorms or magma
[09:24:28] <Ragtime^> “And a rock feels no
pain.  And an island never cries.” — Simon and
Garfunkle
[09:25:13] <artalien> evolution is a creative
process
[09:26:12] <artalien> I see mind as a product of
evolution and as such it is just another
graduation of the same
[09:28:40] <JohnGuru> so
[09:29:10] <JohnGuru> RevBrown, I suppose
you’re too busy to get involved in a topic
[09:29:17] <JohnGuru> pretend I’m Ragtime^ :)
[09:29:26] <artalien> so why does sci-fi not
reflect a continuing process?
[09:29:37] <JohnGuru> artalien, don’t ask
questions
[09:29:56] <RevBrownWrk> JohnGuru, I am a bit
busy, unfortunately
[09:30:16] <JohnGuru> so I guess I’m not a very
good substitute for Ragtime^
[09:30:31] <Ragtime^> Hey!  If he is actually
doing something productive, don’t interrupt
him!  This happens so seldom!
[09:30:51] <RevBrownWrk> JohnGuru, This
would actually be a great time for Rags to get in
some play time without my interference
[09:30:57] <JohnGuru> lol
[09:31:18] <JohnGuru> so artalien, why does
sci-fi not reflect a continuing process?
[09:31:46] <JohnGuru> since revbrown is busy,
let’s go there
[09:31:50] <artalien> it may do in the form of
tech, is a cyborg an evolved human
[09:32:02] <Ragtime^> The Foundation Trilogy
should be required reading for anyone who
wants to discuss science fiction.
[09:32:19] <JohnGuru> is a cyborg an evolved
human?
[09:32:38] <JohnGuru> let’s try, “a cyborg is a
cyborg and a human is a human.” Does that
present us with any conceptual difficulties?
[09:33:02] <artalien> can they have kids
[09:33:27] <JohnGuru> let’s not change the
subject
[09:33:54] <artalien> okay are they different
species? no
[09:34:12] <JohnGuru> they may be different
numbers
[09:34:32] <artalien> so they are the same
species but different, not genetically though
[09:34:46] <JohnGuru> I don’t like insurance
[09:34:56] <JohnGuru> never did, never will
[09:34:59] <artalien> yes you do
[09:35:28] <JohnGuru> okay okay
[09:35:37] <JohnGuru> avoid the green ones.
They taste funny.
[09:36:38] <artalien> man has been plonked into
the natural world an interloper, what tosh
[09:36:46] <artalien> :)
[09:38:14] <JohnGuru> well see, that’s what you
do with logic, artalien. You make sense of things.
[09:38:19] <JohnGuru> The natural world
doesn’t do that.
[09:38:32] <JohnGuru> It just exists. It does what
it does. No self-inspection, no retrospection.
[09:38:44] <JohnGuru> just molecules and atoms
bumping into each other, that’s all it is.
[09:38:53] <JohnGuru> if you see anything more
in it, it’s you projecting what you see
[09:39:24] <artalien> since we are a part of the
natural world it does all the things you say it
doesn’t
[09:39:29] <JohnGuru> people need illusions in
order to accept life
[09:39:44] <artalien> because you insist on
separating the two
[09:39:47] <JohnGuru> life is difficult, trying,
dangerous, hard, and frightening. Why would
any intelligent creature face up to all that?
[09:39:59] <JohnGuru> animals do, because they
can’t imagine an alternative
[09:40:23] <JohnGuru> is that how you do it,
artalien? You do what you do because you can’t
imagine any alternative?
[09:40:48] <JohnGuru> somehow I don’t think so
[09:41:23] <JohnGuru> people need hope, they
need beliefs, and they need something to live for
[09:41:35] <JohnGuru> you won’t find any of
those nouns in physics books
[09:41:57] <JohnGuru> so you can just take your
science and your naturalism and go fish. I don’t
buy it
[09:42:02] <artalien> I agree that people require
meaning
[09:42:49] <artalien> it is like that mathematicia
n denying his parents in the mind body split
[09:43:18] <artalien> nature did not bear me I
am better so much better
[09:43:20] <artalien> :)
[09:43:36] <JohnGuru> hm, I don’t recall such a
mathematician
[09:43:37] * Rastafari ([email protected].
undernet.org) Quit (Ping timeout)
[09:43:50] <JohnGuru> not that you’re wrong, I
just don’t know about it
[09:44:01] <artalien> Noam
[09:44:12] <artalien> he denies his parents since
they are so thick
[09:44:21] <JohnGuru> oh
[09:44:27] <JohnGuru> Noam Himmel? :)
[09:44:30] <artalien> yes
[09:44:34] <JohnGuru> cute
[09:45:07] <JohnGuru> Noam is probably
treatable
[09:45:35] <artalien> if so most of us are
[09:45:40] <JohnGuru> *nods*
[09:45:51] <JohnGuru> so let’s go cure a rose of
being a rose
[09:46:43] <artalien> I watched in wonder the
other day as you defined something scientific
[09:46:54] <artalien> the smallest thing
[09:47:08] <artalien> you said it was a
coordinate, basically
[09:47:10] <artalien> neat
[09:47:22] <artalien> anything reduces to such
[09:47:24] <JohnGuru> I just talk, artalien
[09:47:45] <JohnGuru> oh dear
[09:47:47] <artalien> and thank frak for it
[09:47:54] <JohnGuru> I have to go. I have an
appintment to get ready for
[09:47:58] <JohnGuru> take care, artalien
[09:48:02] <JohnGuru> see you soon
[09:48:04] <artalien> you too JG
[09:48:11] * JohnGuru ([email protected]
.undernet.org) has left #philosophical
[09:51:10] <ahabthewhalr> so….
[09:51:27] <ahabthewhalr> anyone here
interesting post guru
[09:53:59] <artalien> just seen an ad for “proper
food” product sausage roll
[09:55:15] * writing ([email protected]) has
joined #philosophical
[09:56:26] <writing> hi again
[09:56:38] <writing> topic:
[09:56:59] <artalien> hi writing there is none at
present
[09:58:00] <writing> “light travels faster than
sound. this is why some people appear bright,
until you hear them speak.”
[09:58:28] <writing> hi art
[10:02:06] <writing> ok, was just proposing that
joke for a topic but it seems it doesnt work
[10:03:11] * heartlady ([email protected].
137) has joined #philosophical
[10:06:35] <Magnus_RM> light can travel very
slow in certain materials
[10:08:28] <writing> right, thats why the reverse
is also possible: appear as stupid, but reveal
bright when speak ;)
[10:10:34] <Magnus_RM> certain sound waves,
or, if i recall correctly, inference patterns in
sound waves, can travel excedingly fast, probably
close to the speed of light
[10:12:49] <heartlady> light can travel very fast
[10:13:03] <Magnus_RM> heartlady, that we
know ;)
[10:13:04] <heartlady> you see the lightning
before the sound
[10:14:26] <heartlady> ok
[10:17:11] * ArcheopteryX (~Archeopte@ribbit.
users.undernet.org) has joined #philosophical
[10:17:42] <heartlady> my birthday will be on
27th july
[10:17:46] <ArcheopteryX> I think I prefer the
“an earlier kind of chicken/egg” answer to the
riddle
[10:18:03] <ArcheopteryX> that would be a
tuesday, heartlady
[10:18:43] * ArcheopteryX generally prefers
birthdays to occur on a wednesday
[10:18:51] <heartlady> yes
[10:19:01] <heartlady> anyway I am not going to
celebrate it
[10:19:04] <heartlady> I just stay at home
[10:19:06] <heartlady> and sleep
[10:20:40] <writing> dont do that
[10:20:50] <heartlady> why
[10:20:51] <writing> birthsdays should always be
celebrated
[10:20:59] <writing> it brings tonus into our life
[10:21:01] <heartlady> well I never celebrate
[10:21:06] <writing> oh?
[10:21:11] <writing> hm…
[10:21:13] <heartlady> my mother never care
[10:21:26] <writing> thats not so good…
[10:21:51] <heartlady> it ok
[10:21:54] <heartlady> I am old already
[10:22:00] <heartlady> no need to celebrate
anyway
[10:22:09] <writing> well…
[10:22:19] <writing> thats debatable
[10:23:56] <heartlady> so I guess it is all right for
me to just stay at home and sleep
[10:24:40] <writing> well, if it suits you
[10:24:52] <writing> sleeping is good for body &
soul
[10:25:06] <heartlady> really
[10:25:08] <heartlady> thanks
[10:25:23] <heartlady> well I am looking for
relaxation therapy
[10:25:29] <writing> oh
[10:25:32] <heartlady> I went for body massage
once a month
[10:25:33] <heartlady> facial
[10:25:40] <heartlady> and Hiking
[10:25:53] <heartlady> and now I want to learn
meditation
[10:25:57] <writing> good for you
[10:26:01] <ahabthewhalr> i see
[10:26:04] <heartlady> well I am getting older
[10:26:14] <heartlady> I need to do some
therapy for my body and soul
[10:26:17] <ahabthewhalr> everyone is getting
older
[10:26:31] <heartlady> I am kind of afraid of
dying
[10:26:35] <heartlady> I am not ready yet
[10:26:39] <ahabthewhalr> well dont worry
[10:26:43] <ahabthewhalr> youre not dead yet
[10:26:45] <ahabthewhalr> so whats the concern
[10:27:11] <heartlady> but dead came suddenly
[10:27:15] <heartlady> so I dont know yet
[10:29:41] <writing> you should only worry to
find a way for death to be painless
[10:29:48] <writing> or as painless as possible
[10:30:10] <writing> then just dont think about
it until you feel like dying
[10:30:31] <heartlady> ok
[10:31:22] <writing> just live every day of your
life as best as you can, and when you feel you
dont want/cant do it anymore – just cut it of
[10:31:41] <heartlady> thanks
[10:31:47] <writing> welcome
[10:32:01] <heartlady> I use to make a whole
month plan
[10:32:06] <heartlady> for my activity
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has joined #philosophical
[10:32:15] <heartlady> I will have my working
roster
[10:32:26] <heartlady> then will plan for the
other during the off day
[10:32:39] <heartlady> sometime I make my day
pack
[10:32:46] <heartlady> for myself
[10:32:56] <heartlady> I did went out with
colleagues sometime
[10:33:05] <heartlady> but that was just once in
a blue moon
[10:33:18] <writing> i see
[10:33:29] <heartlady> otherwise will be whole
day for myseld
[10:33:32] <heartlady> myself
[10:34:50] <Sengukoi> Hello there.
[10:35:16] <heartlady> I used to go out alone
[10:35:21] <heartlady> even hIking in the jungle
[10:37:00] <writing> hi
[10:37:06] <ahabthewhalr> hey
[10:38:58] <RevBrownWrk> I’m off to lunch.
BBIAB
[10:39:03] <ahabthewhalr> BANG
[10:39:16] * RevBrownWrk is now known as
RevBrownAFK
[10:39:21] <ArcheopteryX> besides. wimmin
stop having birthdays after 21, so no need to
celebrate them =]
[10:39:21] * zam_ ([email protected]
ta.mel.ncable.com.au) Quit (Ping timeout)
[10:39:21] <RevBrownAFK> MP all
[10:40:14] <ArcheopteryX> what ho Reverend
[10:40:27] <ArcheopteryX> what’s the P for?
[10:40:32] <artalien> part
[10:40:45] <ArcheopteryX> oh… he’s off is he?
[10:40:57] <ArcheopteryX> that’ll teach me not
to pay attention
[10:41:05] <artalien> “”There should be
sympathy for his victims and the havoc he
wreaked in that community. There should be no
sympathy for him.” http://www.guardian.co.uk/p
olitics/2010/jul/14/david-cameron-raoul-moat
[10:41:37] <artalien> not even a bit David?
[10:42:43] * writing ([email protected]) Quit
(Quit)
[10:43:37] * Sengukoi is now known as determinist
[10:43:49] <ArcheopteryX> there’s some
interesting commentary on how the media
turned it into a circus, whether he was or was
not a monster/wife beater/psychopathic
narcissicist, whether “his mates” or family really
could have talked him in.  But on balance, I just
find the whole thing tawdry and depressing.
[10:44:58] <artalien> the sympathy for him is
interesting and in an earlier guise I may have
been worried by it
[10:45:35] <ArcheopteryX> There also seems to
be some question as to whether the body
builder thing with the associated drugs screws
with your mind as well as shrinking your nuts to
the size of peas.
[10:46:17] <heartlady> well I suggest please dont
take any associated drugs for body building
[10:46:31] <artalien> those steroids have a bad
press but I have no direct experience of there
effects, I assume they make you more prone to
voilence
[10:46:52] <heartlady> and it may affect the
heart
[10:47:01] <heartlady> please dont ever ever
take it ok
[10:47:07] <heartlady> take it natural
[10:47:17] <heartlady> dont take steroid
[10:47:18] <ArcheopteryX> we were certainly
concerned by the personality changes of a friend
who decided he wanted to do the muscle thing
and changed from a friendly fat geek to a
triangular muscle bound aggressive geek over 6
months.
[10:47:19] <heartlady> very dangerous
[10:47:57] <heartlady> and what does he
transform into?
[10:48:00] * zam_ ([email protected]
ta.mel.ncable.com.au) has joined #philosophical
[10:48:08] <ArcheopteryX> they shrink a blokes
balls, heartlady.
[10:48:18] <ArcheopteryX> not a nice person,
heartlady
[10:48:20] <heartlady> gosh
[10:48:46] <heartlady> well he should do exercise
[10:48:50] <heartlady> not taking drug
[10:48:58] <heartlady> exercise rather will tone
up the muscle
[10:49:02] <heartlady> and shape the body too
[10:49:28] <ArcheopteryX> apparently, in these
gyms there’s a culture of drug taking.  lots of
pressure is put on people.
[10:49:48] <heartlady> please dont take the
drugs
[10:49:56] <ArcheopteryX> it’s actually very
hard for a clean gym instructor to get a job in
most of these gyms, I’m reliably informed
[10:50:03] <heartlady> if they insisiting to take
the drugs just go to other gym
[10:50:06] <heartlady> instead
[10:50:16] <ArcheopteryX> you’d think so,
wouldn’t you.
[10:50:38] <heartlady> I suggest not to take drug
[10:50:43] <heartlady> for body building
[10:50:57] <ArcheopteryX> but they start
innocuously, with the energy drinks, the high
protein stuff, move you on in stages to the hard
stuff
[10:51:28] <heartlady> are you body builder?
[10:51:49] <ArcheopteryX> god no.  I’m a couch
frog.
[10:51:49] <heartlady> well for me I rather
exercise for the health of my body
[10:52:00] <heartlady> i will not go too extreme
to body building
[10:52:11] <heartlady> ok
[10:55:37] <heartlady> I am sleepy now
[10:55:42] <heartlady> good night all
[10:55:43] <heartlady> bye
[10:55:55] * heartlady ([email protected].
137) Quit (Quit)
[11:00:22] <ahabthewhalr> lordy lordy
[11:00:37] <ahabthewhalr> i was just mob
banned from a political channel because i
questioned obama being a socialist
[11:00:40] <ahabthewhalr> welcome to america
[11:11:35] * IDT ([email protected]
1.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) has joined
#philosophical
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[11:33:27] * snaggle ([email protected].
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[11:33:36] <RevBrownAFK> I’m back :)
[11:33:41] * RevBrownAFK is now known as
RevBrownWrk
[11:34:10] <IDT> wsup RevBrownWrk
[11:34:41] * RevBrownWrk (~Nunya@revbrown.
users.undernet.org) has left #philosophical
[11:34:51] * X sets mode: +l 35
[11:35:19] * RevBrownWrk (~Nunya@revbrown.
users.undernet.org) has joined #philosophical
[11:35:24] <RevBrownWrk> :)
[11:35:39] <LionClan> hello
[11:35:57] <RevBrownWrk> MM LionClan :)
[11:35:59] <IDT> hello LionClan
[11:36:29] <artalien> In that article David
Cameron also calls for an end to freedom of
speech.
[11:37:01] <artalien> He is proving to be a
populist, stopping short of advocating a new law
[11:37:46] <ArcheopteryX> and on the other
hand, it’s in the grauniad, which is witch hunter
and screamer central.
[11:38:14] <ArcheopteryX> you’re better off
reading the telegraph my friend =]
[11:38:16] <lakitu> can someone compose a irc://
link to this channel for me – i could do it, but
[11:38:21] <lakitu> if someone knows the syntax
offhand
[11:38:43] <lakitu> is it just irc://server/channel?
[11:38:47] <lakitu> is there a #?
[11:38:48] <ArcheopteryX> I didn’t even know
there was such a thing as irc://
[11:38:52] <lakitu> yeah..
[11:39:05] <lakitu> anyway – someone/anyone
know?
[11:39:31] <lakitu> in this wide world of
#philosophical – alright i’ll look it up
[11:40:33] <LionClan> do tell us if you find it
[11:40:37] <lakitu> irc://tampa.fl.undernet.org/#
philosophical for any one wondering
[11:40:39] <lakitu> there you go
[11:40:41] <lakitu> or wait
[11:40:43] <lakitu> wrong – no #
[11:40:48] <lakitu> irc://tampa.fl.undernet.org/ph
ilosophical
[11:41:25] -X- [email protected]
hcp.roch.mn.charter.com has just authenticated
as you (lakitu). If this is not you, your account
may have been compromised. If you wish to
suspend all your access as a precautionary
measure, type ‘/msg [email protected]
suspendme <password>’ and contact a CService
representative to resolve the problem. ** Note:
You will NOT be able to use your account after you
issue this command **
[11:41:44] <lakitu> dang – add a .us i think after
.fl
[11:41:48] <lakitu> k – sorry to interrupt
[11:43:15] <LionClan>  irc://Tampa.FL.US.under
net.org/philosophical
[11:43:31] <lakitu> right
[11:44:32] <lakitu> spread it on edu forums or
something.. somewhere good.
[11:46:32] * Ragtime^ (Ragtime_@ip72-223-7-41
.ph.ph.cox.net) Quit (Quit: “Good prose is like a
windowpane.” — George ORWELL)
[11:50:07] <lakitu> is John coming back today,
anyone know? i wanted to tell him i don’t think
the Popular Branch i proposed for a One
Quarter Direct Democracy should (maybe?) be
able to write laws.  it should maybe be reserved
for elected officials, since they are schooled
there in law & law writing…
[11:51:09] <lakitu> & also shouldn’t some – or
are they – shouldn’t some constitutional
declarations be write-protected, inalienable? or
is the whole Constitution “writeable”?
[11:52:59] <lakitu> err.. i.e. is the whole
Constituion “writeable”, able to be misshapen &
altered beyond goodness.. that would be no
good… i think the U.N. Rights say the rights
there may not be taken away.. they are
inalienable
[11:53:14] * IDT ([email protected]
1.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) has left #philosophic
al
[11:53:24] <lakitu> are any parts of the
Constitution of The United States inalienable??
[11:55:05] <Magnus_RM> does an inalienable
part mean that the part is necessary?
[11:55:11] <lakitu> not to crash any parties,
here. i was just looking to discuss direct
democracy – esp with John or Waub..
[11:55:16] <lakitu> unchangeable, Magnus
[11:55:24] <lakitu> write-protected
[11:55:27] <Magnus_RM> in other words, as i
said, necessary
[11:55:43] <lakitu> ok, in the sense it is
necessary to the Constitution, yes
[11:58:07] <LionClan> how would you persuade
the current regime to change
[11:58:13] <lakitu> our ForeFathers were
amazing people. . . . come to a foreign land,
write the greatest i know of constitution & body
of upper law, enact it & fight for it.. America is
what resulted
[11:58:30] <lakitu> Forefathers*
[11:59:05] <LionClan> my ancestors have been
here from the first, to me it is family history
[11:59:26] <lakitu> incredible
[12:00:03] <LionClan> I know of a dozen
ancestors that fought in the revolutionary war
[12:00:21] <lakitu> i am a 4th generation native..
1905 my Great Grandpa came over.. very recent
[12:01:19] <lakitu> i believe it was from Holland
[12:02:10] <lakitu> i guess 3rd generation – he
was in immigrant
[12:02:17] <lakitu> an immigrant
[12:03:54] <LionClan> the rhine is the biggest
river in western europe, and it was typical for
germans and scandanavians and people from all
over europe to embark for america from holland
in general, rotterdam and amsterdam in
particular
[12:09:11] <LionClan> american shiplists usually
indicate port of origin instead of nationality, so
you have to check on the european side to find
where they actually came from
[12:10:59] <LionClan> the atlantic is a big barrier
for genealogists, but I’ve found lots of
connections, I know where my people came from
[12:11:45] <lakitu> imagine coming to a foreign
land, & seeing only openness in the horizon, &
deciding you will – with a group of, 4? others,
make the law of the land good, & make the
country free unlike your homeland, & you will
fight your homeland’s misguided semi-tyrannical
government as they hound you on your shores,
for the freedom about the very person writing
this message.. & imagine seeing this from
Heaven,, this glorious country you created.. a
succe
[12:11:45] <lakitu> ss. why not build on their
ideas – freedom for all, empowerment of all..
good law, freedom from oppression – freedom
from corruption. is not the corporate powers
that be corrupting the legislative branch, & this
said by so many? why not fight our oppressors
with empowerment of the people & suffrage to
vote, to let the common man’s ungilded
unwealthy conscience decide law in his life, not
the corporate shills with their pockets open to
bribe
[12:11:45] <lakitu> ry of representatives?
[12:11:48] <lakitu> why not fight that
[12:12:16] <lakitu> give the ungilded common
man’s conscience Voting Power
[12:13:20] * shboom (~chatzilla@BonneyWireless
.bonney.lib.me.us) has joined #philosophical
[12:13:23] <lakitu> Voting Power on any & every
issue; barring some ungoodness this creates..
[12:13:46] <lakitu> direct democracy, in quarter,
mixed with the current representative
[12:13:56] <lakitu> democracy
[12:14:49] <lakitu> the common man 1/4 the
power of all his government.. seems humble &
meek – no major risk of mob rule, only mob
opinion & 1/4 say
[12:14:55] <lakitu> in the government they live
in
[12:15:47] <lakitu> the governance they live
under; 1/4 say in the governance they live
under.. who is to say not?
[12:15:52] <lakitu> not me
[12:18:07] <lakitu> Richard Stallman says so.
[12:18:14] <lakitu> Noam Chomsky says so
[12:18:35] <lakitu> http://www.ni4d.us/en/endor
sements
[12:20:29] * ForgeAus ([email protected]
) has joined #philosophical
[12:23:31] <lakitu> one of US’s own senators
supported it: http://www.ni4d.us/en/node/64 –
coney knows or knows of him, i would bet: Mike
Gravel, of Alaska.
[12:23:50] <lakitu> he said that Cicero quote i
gave the other day: Marcus Cicero, over 2000
years ago, defined freedom as participation in
power.
[12:23:50] <lakitu> If you don’t participate in
power, you are not free. Whoever has the power
owns you. If you want to be free you have to
participate in power.
[12:23:50] <lakitu> Power is lawmaking; if you
don’t participate in lawmaking, all you can do
live by the laws that are made for you. Either
you live by their laws or you go to jail. Those
who make the law have the power to make you
free. On election day, you give your power away.
[12:23:50] <lakitu> Follow the logic: If freedom is
participation in power and power is lawmaking,
then freedom is participation in lawmaking.
[12:23:50] <lakitu> The key to freedom is the
National Initiative: it gives the people the tools
to make laws, to vote on all the issues that effect
their lives. Now THAT is freedom. The crux of
the National Initiative is to share power and
have freedom.
[12:25:29] <lakitu> ” ” as well as founding this
organization, http://www.ni4d.us/ . their slogan
is: We now have complete suffrage on WHO can
vote; we continue to fight for complete suffrage
on WHAT we can vote on. —- it IS an issue of
suffrage, i feel, & is sufficiently protected from
Mob Rule, by the Checks & Balances of other
Branches of government
[12:25:31] * snaggle ([email protected].
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[12:27:25] <lakitu> the president or either house
could veto any Popular positive vote; just like
they could obstruct a unjust & unpopular war,
like we just committed in Iraq, the US
[12:28:11] <lakitu> the Populus could obstruct &
veto any unjust war so long as they were not
fooled with disinformation
[12:29:00] <lakitu> the popular vote could
override that
[12:29:36] <lakitu> Iraq.. maybe Vietnam; altho
we’d have to have pulling out strategies for
stability & sanity of handling such situations
[12:30:12] <lakitu> or at least good management
[12:30:16] <lakitu> – strategies for good
management
[12:30:59] * RevBrownWrk is now known as
RevBrownAFK
[12:32:35] <lakitu> Bush administrations – tho
this is not the only reason i would want to make
this happen – adminstration’s such as Bush II’s
would be neuteralized as soon as they become
unpopular.. no more running with it until the
term is up
[12:32:50] <lakitu> we would minimize or
diminish damage of such leaders
[12:33:33] <lakitu> neutralized*
[12:34:47] * eristikofils ([email protected]
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[12:35:06] <LionClan> Whatever system you set
up, the moneyed interests would immediately
begin buying the newly powerful, as they always
do
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[12:39:07] <lakitu> i want to make this country
great like my forefathers, too, & i am seeing the
same oppression they saw in their homeland &
fought & smoothed out of law here.. they made
this country the great country theirs was not..  i
want to make this country the great country it is
losing itself from being: just like the forefathers
did with the original country, a direct
democracy could save us
[12:39:39] <lakitu> From the rocks we are
veering toward, in this great & mighty hull. From
the corruption of the gilded conscience, & their
vote on how to traject our country
[12:40:18] * annely ([email protected]
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[12:40:56] <lakitu> & it’s current waivering
trajectory, before Obama came in.. & in general
before, in the lull of our country’s history, where
corporate influence took a few fingers or more
in the gloves of government
[12:41:44] <lakitu> a direct democracy, in part, a
quarter direct democracy could truely make our
country great again, like it was when the
Forefathers founded it
[12:42:55] <lakitu> may peace & greatness be
upon us & the world..
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[12:50:32] <LionClan> a bunch of crooks destroy
the planet and civilization
[12:51:14] <LionClan> why weren’t Cheney and
Bush arrested and tried
[12:51:47] <LionClan> At least try Rumsfeld, the
sadistic torturer
[12:52:36] <LionClan> Darth Cheney has left the
Senate floor
[12:53:09] <LionClan> we let him walk away, still
spewing his lies
[12:54:55] <LionClan> The BP blowout was
deliberate, and Cheney’s Halliburton was in
charge of the cement seal and as you see, there
is no seal
[12:55:15] <RevBrownAFK> *sigh*
[12:56:05] <LionClan> they tapped the
radiological methane at over 100 times any
pressure they can control with any known
technology
[12:56:45] <lakitu> i will be back later.. vote for
your suffrage, people, vote for the right to vote
on what you can vote on, & not just who for.
write your senator to give you senate, your
congressmen to give you congression, & your
president to give you presidence: write to give
governance over your own life, & take it back
from the corporate interests who brought you
drug company deregulation & abuseful
prescriptions, oil spill from oil companies being
abo
[12:56:46] <lakitu> ve the law, thru deregulation
, & financial wall street anarchy that caused our
country to nearly sink to the belly economically –
from deregulation.. stop unwanted law change
without the popular consent, vote for you.
[12:57:55] <lakitu> Bush should’ve been
impeached LionClan, maybe with Popular Vote
he would have been. maybe he would have been
[12:58:35] <lakitu> Bush II, i mean, as you meant
[12:59:14] <LionClan> when you write your
senator, be sure to send along a check as big as
the ones the oil companies and pharmaceutical
companies and bailed out wall street bankers
send, the senators count dollars more than
votes, because with dollars you advertise, and
create votes
[13:01:03] <LionClan> sorry, but you cannot
change senators by talking to them unless they
are independently wealthy
[13:01:40] <lakitu> now isn’t the time for
cynicism LionClan
[13:01:45] <lakitu> now isn’t the time
[13:02:05] <lakitu> i would spread the idea of
your ability to vote on any issue
[13:02:08] <lakitu> if you believe in it
[13:02:51] * RevBrownAFK (~Nunya@revbrown.
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[13:05:20] <lakitu> i am going to leave. i will pest
you guys later. Bye
[13:06:20] <LionClan> nice talking to you
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[13:28:13] <LionClan> <— knows cat language
[13:28:35] <LionClan>  It’s worse than cats can’t
see green… cat’s don’t believe in green.
[13:28:50] <LionClan> Cats do not trust us,
because they think we made green up.
[13:29:28] * artalien ([email protected])
has joined #philosophical
[13:29:46] <LionClan> Cats can see black, and
white…and yellow.
[13:30:14] <LionClan>  Most of us have three
cone types, some few have a fourth.
[13:30:28] <LionClan> birds and reptiles have
four, morphologically two were lost by us, and
one of the remaining ones morphed into two
[13:30:47] <LionClan> that blue cone variation is
X linked, so men always get only one copy, men
never have more than 3 cone types
[13:31:04] <LionClan> Somewhere out there, is
the sisterhood of the ultimate arbiters of taste,
with both X variant cones and the other two for
a total of four cone frequencies, totally trumping
our garish sense of taste in every category.
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[14:49:34] * artalien looking for online
documentary or philosophical presentation any
links?
[14:49:52] * artalien free works best for me
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#philosophical
[16:42:48] * Rejoined channel #philosophical
[16:42:48] * Topic is ‘Scientist solves chicken-and-
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85/ns/technology_and_science-science/’
[16:42:48] * Set by ClockwrkMonk on Wed Jul 14
06:36:42
[16:42:48] list of nicks present in #philosophical:
lakitu IDT Osirian annely Trahenots eristikofils
LionClan waub zam_ ArcheopteryX pavlicek
Magnus_RM oitnelis tripedal Eve` @S0crates
pixie^ jhn Gaindell brainsoap solitude Gomp
astarte NooProcess AmeliaEarhrt @X dixie bsod
paros LiquidChickn benhem
[16:42:49] -S0crates- Hi lakitu: Welcome (back) to
#philosophical( http://www.webscriber.org.uk ).
!newtop for a new topic. If it’s quiet try typing
r&om or !teach. For definitions use ??
<word_or_phrase>, ** <word_or_phrase> or try
!define <word>. Please use the channel
responsibly.
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[17:44:16] <lakitu> the supracriminals these days
need not break a law: the make it not exist, in
lobbied &/or bribed repeal. deregulation enables
a crime that is no longer illegal, but most
immoral, & just as damaging. the new criminal – i
call them supracriminals, for the nonce – are not
outlaws, they are above the law by moving the
law into nonexistence, & unenforcedness. they
are not outlaws, they are unlaws, deterimental
beyond a crime to a whole possibil
[17:44:16] <lakitu> ity for crime.. ..in the sense
of being immoral & unacceptable, legally. a
partial direct democracy would help eliminate
this, since the common man detests lobbiests &
mega corporations, at least in our time
[17:45:23] <lakitu> Stop Supercrime: eliminate
lobbiest power, before they eliminate the laws
that protect YOU
[17:45:27] <lakitu> & your country
[17:46:01] <lakitu> & it’s stability.. & the
world’s…
[17:46:07] <lakitu> its
[17:48:02] <lakitu> lobbyists..
[17:51:54] <lakitu> brain pain – be back later
[17:52:13] <lakitu> Vote For You, remember
[17:52:19] <lakitu> partial direct democracy
[17:56:01] <ArcheopteryX> mmmm
[17:57:24] <ArcheopteryX> I was told once that
the supracrims live on large boats which stay in
international waters, truly beyond the reach of
PC Plod
[17:58:12] * ArcheopteryX (~Archeopte@ribbit.
users.undernet.org) Quit (Read error: EOF from
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[17:58:41] <catnips> oh we’re such a witty bunch
[18:01:26] <lakitu> catnips: partial direct
democracy – look it up & scroll up the last few
days. i am campaigning, for you among other
people . . .
[18:01:31] <lakitu> for me, too
[18:01:44] <catnips> I’ve been AFK for the last
couple/three days …
[18:02:05] <lakitu> been away from the channel?
or no
[18:02:13] <catnips> yes, been away from the
channel
[18:02:32] <catnips> since the 12th apparently
[18:02:58] <lakitu> hold on
End of #philosophical buffer    Wed Jul 14 18:03:25 2010