This is a metaphilosophy dialogue I led in Undernet #philosophical in January (January23rd) 2023. It does a lot with a little & many people might appreciate the content – especially since I work to keep it approachable – using real life examples for example. This is very heady to figure & i might add on for example later. For now here is the main course!:
In this I am `lakitu`:
[11:41:05] <lakitu_> hello fattratt[11:41:37] * lakitu_ waking up around 11 am for a rest day (sic; day of rest)
[11:47:40] *** not2away is now known as not2
[11:53:50] *** Joins: Wagnerr ([email protected])
[11:54:01] <lakitu_> craftratt
[11:55:18] <lakitu_> I’ve been working on this (idea) complex:
[11:55:35] <lakitu_> theory : practice : abstract
[11:55:36] <lakitu_> :
[11:57:23] <lakitu_> * theory : ? : practice : abstract :: art : strategy : craft : concrete
[11:57:33] <lakitu_> misprint the first time
[11:57:40] <lakitu_> that I fixed
[11:58:03] <lakitu_> the “::” divides the two
[11:58:09] <lakitu_> as you saw I bet
[11:58:20] <lakitu_> * as you may have seen
[11:59:05] <lakitu_> theory & practice are more abstract forms, art & craft are more concrete
[11:59:25] <lakitu_> ah that’s right:
[11:59:45] <lakitu_> theory : *praxis* : practice : abstract :: art : strategy : craft : concrete
[12:00:20] <lakitu_> praxis is the abstract go-between form for theory & praxis
[12:00:33] <lakitu_> strategy is the concrete go between form for art & craft
[12:06:19] <lakitu_> thus,
[12:06:48] <lakitu_> strike that (meaning strike saying thus,)
[12:07:10] <lakitu_> * strategy is the concrete go-between form for art & craft
[12:11:28] <lakitu_> “practice” is common for a lawyer or a doctor: a legal practice, for example.
[12:11:55] <lakitu_> that are more erudite
[12:12:58] <lakitu_> meaning educated to a high degree
[12:13:29] *** X sets mode: +o lakitu
[12:13:56] *** X sets mode: +v fattratt
[12:14:11] *** X sets mode: +o lakitu_
[12:16:34] <lakitu_> the songwriting craft (sic; the craft of songwriting) might be one we’d hear more for an example for the more concrete craft form.
[12:20:26] <lakitu_> * the songwriting craft (sic; the craft of songwriting) might be one we’d hear more for an example for the more concrete form that is craft.
[12:22:28] <lakitu_> ** the songwriting craft (sic; the craft of songwriting) might be one we’d hear more for an example for the more concrete *form that is craft*.
[12:29:58] *** Quits: not2 ([email protected]) (Quit)
[12:37:11] *** Quits: Ragtime^ ([email protected]) (Quit: Beware of programmers who carry screwdrivers.)
[12:40:16] <lakitu_> statecraft, spycraft.
[12:45:42] <lakitu_> practicing your instrument might help you more with theory than songwriting art (sic; the art of songwriting) & songwriting craft (sic; the craft of songwriting)
[12:46:00] <lakitu_> * practicing your instrument might help you more with music theory than songwriting art (sic; the art of songwriting) & songwriting craft (sic; the craft of songwriting)
[12:46:15] <lakitu_> ** practicing your instrument might help you more with *music* theory than songwriting art (sic; the art of songwriting) & songwriting craft (sic; the craft of songwriting)
[12:55:09] <Fixion> playing an instrument is very different – although related to writing music…
[12:55:26] <lakitu_> not too different
[12:55:54] <Fixion> songwriting even more requires essentially skill in lyrical poetry
[12:56:11] <Fixion> again different skill from playing and different skill from writing music
[12:56:28] <Fixion> although much of it may go hand-in-hand depending on your talent…
[12:56:29] <lakitu_> separate
[12:57:17] <Fixion> music theory is about how music is read and written, but you can play if you can read, you don’t have to write music to understand music theory…
[12:57:28] <lakitu_> crafting your performance, using a theme for your art, practicing your instrument scales, studying music theory are four examples.
[12:57:55] <Fixion> (others play without music theory – by ear – or naturally talented)
[12:58:16] <Fixion> jazz is often unread because its essentially ad hoc music
[12:58:41] <lakitu_> there’s more to music theory than reading & writing music, Fixion.
[12:58:44] <Fixion> but to differentiate it from noise Jazz often is done with a group/band, and they tend to build a ryhthm together…
[12:58:54] <Fixion> yes… listening is important too…
[12:59:20] <lakitu_> people use music theory even if they haven’t had a class in it. the I-IV-V is common, for example.
[12:59:36] <Fixion> uh?
[12:59:40] <Fixion> not sure what you mean by that
[13:00:13] <Fixion> what is I-IV-V ?(1-4-5 if its roman numerals but not sure how it applies)
[13:01:11] <lakitu_> many songs
[13:01:15] <Fixion> music THEORY is about knowing things like breaves, staffs, key signatures, etc… its about reading and writing music the THEORY of it… the sound and acutally playing it are different things altogether…
[13:02:11] <lakitu_> no. you have an affliction that is making you think music theory is only written & read. you play instruments in music theory class, use music theory at your instrument
[13:02:30] <lakitu_> use your instrument during music theory
[13:03:16] <lakitu_> for example, ear training for perfect pitch.
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[13:05:35] *** X sets mode: +v Ragtime^
[13:06:21] <Fixion> actually playing instruments is not required for music theory afaik.. it may be used in classes, but its not a necessary part (although it tends to be accompanying)
[13:06:40] <Fixion> normally the whole reason you are learning music theory is in order to play an instrument
[13:06:47] <lakitu_> I’ve had music theory 101 three times.
[13:07:13] <lakitu_> the teachers were at pianos.
[13:07:25] <Fixion> but someone like say beethoven (sp?) was deaf right? he did music by math, actually playing it isn’t necessarily necessary…
[13:07:44] <Fixion> it tends to help though
[13:08:11] <lakitu_> you’re very far into an imagination for music theory class versus the reallty for music theory class
[13:08:34] <Fixion> theres no single instrument that music theory applies to… (as long as it has the required pitches)
[13:09:10] <Fixion> its normally intrinsically linked but its not the same thing…
[13:10:19] <lakitu_> moving on
[13:10:22] <Fixion> but if you are writing music you don’t even need any of that, you can make musical score without ever having heard anything …
[13:11:06] <Fixion> you just follow the rules and place notes where they can go… it may sound terrible, it may sound good, but you can follow musical theory
[13:11:47] <Fixion> and you don’t need to play it yourself, you can just give the score to someone who knows how to read it and play it…
[13:11:54] <lakitu_> you’re making them as separate as you can when I am showing how they are connected
[13:12:15] <Fixion> I’m not saying they aren’t connected…
[13:12:37] <Fixion> but they aren’t the SAME thing, they’re different skills and different aspects of music…
[13:12:38] <lakitu_> weird experimental silent-music theory songwriting examples
[13:13:02] <Fixion> its entirely possible… and probably been done before
[13:13:10] <Fixion> not that I’ve tried it I mean I can read and play music…
[13:13:32] <Fixion> so if I were writing it I’d be playing it too testing it out as I go etc…
[13:13:47] * lakitu_ `/ignore`s Fixion citing he is a Big Pharma worker trying to sow discord
[13:14:07] * lakitu_ getting another hot chocolate
[13:14:11] <Fixion> sow discord? no it can actually be enabling…
[13:14:59] <Fixion> instead of telling people they have to crawl before they can walk maybe they can do something… maybe they’re disabled and unable to use an instrument but if they can create score by other means… then it gives them opportunity
[13:15:08] <Fixion> or maybe they’re no good at one but good at the other…
[13:16:08] <Fixion> I’m sick of this whole expected progression thing
[13:16:42] <Fixion> as if you can’t be good at something the very first time… and the expectation that doing it over and over again necessarily makes you better…
[13:17:03] <Fixion> sure it gives you experience but it doesn’t necessarily mean you can achieve as good a result as the first time you tried it
[13:17:17] <Fixion> (or as bad hehe)
[13:17:43] <Fixion> anyawy I gotta go
[13:17:50] *** Quits: Fixion ([email protected]) (Read error: EOF from client)
[13:22:22] <lakitu_> mm. *hot* *chocolate* – num
[13:22:29] <lakitu_> chocolate is my favorite food
[13:26:41] <lakitu_> culinary art (sic; culinary arts) is another familiar art.
[13:29:37] <lakitu_> it is a little more concrete being something we make to eat around three times a day.
[13:30:09] <lakitu_> architecture is much more rare for its construction, & thus that much more theoretical – needing to get it right
[13:30:33] <lakitu_> for the long term.
[13:36:08] <lakitu_> Fixion’s being a gleed dancing goblin, I will return another time
[13:36:37] *** lakitu_ sets mode: +v Grax
[13:37:00] *** lakitu_ sets mode: +v catnips
[14:02:54] <lakitu_> back
[14:03:46] <lakitu_> I believe a German philosopher coined praxis: the ferry between theory & practice
[14:04:07] <lakitu_> I made my default web browser search engine Wikipedia
[14:04:18] <lakitu_> Google is screw loose
[14:04:38] <lakitu_> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Praxis
[14:04:39] <zhan> Praxis may refer to:.
[14:08:14] <Ragtime^> praxis makes perfect
[14:10:50] <lakitu_> ha
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[14:14:16] <lakitu_> that was not a very helpful article.
[14:15:09] <lakitu_> for example, you might use praxis to generalize from practice to theory – you might demonstrate by using strategy to go from art to craft.
[14:15:48] <lakitu_> for example, you might use praxis to generalize from practice to theory – you might use strategy to demonstrate art by craft.
[14:15:53] <lakitu_> ** for example, you might use praxis to generalize from practice to theory – you might use strategy to demonstrate art by craft.
[14:16:37] <lakitu_> for example a sample food for people to taste a culinary art recipe.
[14:17:09] *** X sets mode: +v not2
[14:17:13] <lakitu_> * for example *to craft* a sample food for people to taste a culinary art *(sic; culinary arts)* recipe.
[14:30:00] <lakitu_> astronomy might be more toward theory, space craft (sic; spacecraft) might be more toward craft
[14:30:08] <lakitu_> for example